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Monday, July 16th 2018 it's time for this week's edition of the being cast a weekly discussion about the news and issues facing marketers today. Thanks for joining us.
The idea that online content to be offered as add supported for some won't be a free for subscribers is a very common model. Put is this approach cheapening both of value and effectiveness of the ad side of the equation. Tonight will discuss. Also whether shrinking consumer attention is really in advertising problem. Why feel good contents still works. Evolving data into action.
Plus this week's Advil fun. That's the lineup. Lets me tonight. Thanks for joining us for this week's been cast on ball, north and with me on the panel for this evening, restart with finance, executive professional coach, and personal branding, expert authors, speaker, miss tomorrow. Last check tomorrow. Welcome to the program. Thank you. Thank you for having me. My
pleasure. No, also joining us. We have the C e. O of case book PBC technology, pioneer mister Tristan Louis trust on you have a lot to celebrate this evening, don't you? I do thanks to the success of the French in the World, Cup of pleasure to be here. Happy to have you on board. Now next up we have the chairman of streamlined media and C e. O of bold culture mister Darren Martin Darren welcome to the program. Had Bob thanks for having me. And finally, were
pleased to have back the chief marketing officer of W n. Y c. New York, public radio, mister Peter, wine guard Peter. Hello, Bob, thank you for having me on the show. Happy to have gone. Well, I'm going to jump right into the topics as is my prerogative kitten into this first issue, because it's a real interesting one more and more contemplated losers or turning to a free me model giving consumers the choice of viewing content, add free. If they pay a subscription.
Now on the surface, this seems like an elegant solution, Peter mean is kind of gives the best of both worlds. You can have the content in live for free, or you can pay a little bit of money and have no ads. But is there a possibility just a possibility. The publishers are cheapening the value of their ad units by doing this. And what's the impact of this to the ecosystem? Your take on the situation? Yeah, well, I think what happened is the ad, the ad values already cheapen themselves to others are just
reacting to that. And it's been a long time coming generally speaking, and this is my opinion. You're alone. But I think they're probably other people who shared with me is that know we're heading towards a real reckoning media, and maybe you to call an overall deflation in the value of media. There's just so much of it. Because of the internet, because the ability now to access media from all over the world and user generated content, there's just no end to it. It's
nearly infinite. And when you have infinite supply, that at a exceeds demand and the value of it decreases. So I think the value of the advertising that supports media has been going down consistently. But I mean a under your point's well taken I mean, I I agree with you that there's an endless supply of online media that cheapens the value of the product. And yet there's not I mean, the subscription models. I know for your operation, you're
subscriptions are not nearly as big as your and revenue when you're talking about, you know the pod cast arena or the online content. Well, there's not really subscription model where at where a nonprofit people give us money as a gift buying anything from us. The content is free always, and we ask if you like the content, we're almost like date. The original on Kickstarter model. Right, we're we're producing something and that asking people after the fact, if they like it to kick in
subscription model, possibly a little different. But you might say in some way, but. Yes. But I mean, does it point the point to the point still is you know? I mean, yes, I am wrong about your particular operation, but I mean in terms of the the subscription verses ad revenue model. Most of this subscription models that are out there either have some ads included in the subscription model or add free,
and most people are choosing to go in experienced the continent of freedom manner. So I'm wondering, is this really as much of a problem is the author of the article that I read is considering it to be. Ah. It's a good question, whether I was going to ask your problem for whom exactly, you know, I don't think it's a problem for publishers long term so much. It is a problem for brands that want to reach people at scale and no longer have a good vehicles in which to do that.
So there's paying on all sides of this equation. It's difficult for consumers to be reached by adds that are relevant in interesting or certainly in the digital arena into delivered in a format that you want to actually see. It's difficult for publishers because you. The audience being attenuated you no longer have the scale in which to charge premiums for for advertising and for the brands. There's a loss NAFTA wonderful channel that they had vetoed the first
is 70 or 80 years of the central I century when you're able to reach rarely cheaply great percentage of consumers in the country. So the whole infrastructure, the whole model of the media supported advertising or advertising exported media, I mean, is, is is going away and being reinvented before our eyes. I want to get you in on this because he heard the or the media buyer, you're the one is planning this type of stuff out there in the marketplace. Are you seeing a
cheapening in the value of the ad unit in is this model actually affecting view in any kind of negative manner? I think with on the on the agency side right in doing wreck buys, no. Of course you look at programatic and how that drove C p. n.'s all the way down and completely, I believe, gave control to brands in how they can you know what websites they can be on, and that control that they have to place their brand on certain sites which took
away the I think honest on the actual publisher to have some type of privilege to charge what they want to charge a premium rate. But for for me, I've seen that if you have a great audience, if they are loyal when they're going to either by that subscription and they won't mind that subscription. I eat you look at the New York Times and their a parent and intentional drive to increase their subscriptions and how that's more than their actual ad revenue at this
point. An ad industry and I think it's just. For us as a media buyer, as a planner, looking at which cites or which media companies has the best audiences, the most engaging audiences, the ones that are coming back and then trying to figure out how we placed it the right media, great creative on that website. And I know trysting you were jumping in to say something. Yeah, I was going to say one of the challenges there is that it's
a bit of a self inflicted wound right about 20 years ago. In the digital space, at least the decision was made that see PM's we're going to Roll Hall and with no regard in particular to the type of audience that that was being delivered, and that seemed to have deep valued the quality of audiences which has been been kind of a race to the bottom in terms programatic can that now
forcing publishers in a world where content is pretty widespread to rethink their model? Right. Wheel audience became pork bellies, right? The role of the same and interchangeable in a digital infrastructure, and you were just buying where you can get it, the cheapest. Yep. You know, another thing that keeps me up at night when I'm thinking about this particular problem is whether or not there's this economic divide being created by the free me a model. And
I'm wondering specifically about whether or not it's going to be harder to reach a premium market. We've talked about this on the show previously, but I wanted to get your guys take on a Tammy, any thoughts on that particular angle. I mean, it's you know, we're we're curt recruiting this two tier structure were part of the audience is not seeing advertising because they have money, and that's the audience that we want to reach most of the time, how the people out the money
disposable get rid of Iraq. So how do we manage that? How do we navigate? But I think it's a tough one to navigate. Someone has sirens going on in the background served, picking mood that Nuth they'll be fantastic, but go ahead. Tell me. I mean I I guess I started to question the whole framingham model to begin with and wonder that over a time does the freemen model even really work? I mean, there's a certain amount of economics that you have to pay
close mine to in order to make sure that you're in the proper our ally. And you know the companies that are using them, particularly once you have had success. You know. I didn't have they been in business long enough to declare victory, you know, in this as a sustainable bottle. And I think you know to your earlier point, I think the quality of advertising has has has
diminished. Because when you seek quality advertising than people do have the time to actually watch the ad. So. Yeah, that gets into what we're going to talk about next than I am. I don't mind talking a little bit about it now, which is this idea of consumer attention being all on the consumer that consumers are somehow be having their attention divided. And that's why the not paying attention when the reality is, it could be that
were were just creating such bad advertisements that people don't want to pay attention to it and their pain to get rid of it. The the the onus may be on the advertising, the advertisers in their agencies about providing better add content to the men and just one more plane going back to the free me a model to the point. And there is so much content that is that is out there that how do you offer this content for free and hope to then convert? I think that that's a
tough nut to crack because I I think, you know, I understand the whole concept of it. I understand that increases users over a short amount of time, but that couldn't version, I think is really tough to make an especially as context gross so quickly exponentially. I think it's going to become a harder model to to sustain profitability. You know, this free model sound like such a good idea Peter, you know, there's so
much about it that's appealing. From a consumer's standpoint, you're getting your getting an audience to give you money for the content directly. You're getting a better experience for the consumer who gets to just get the content that they're paying for and not have to experience ads and be interrupted during that process. It seemed so good and yet it doesn't work in it. It's not being able to be rolled out in scale with any
law, any kind of effectiveness, like the only subscription models that work are the ones that are purely subscription models. You know? Exactly. Everyone's pointed it. We're sitting here trying to retrofit a model that was developed for different. Said a purposes right that the problem here is also does. Not that we're we're blocking certain figure who said that. One of the challenges here is that people who
can afford to pay for content of the people that you most want to reach with ads, and that's what seems to be in jeopardy ear. But the kinds of advertising, especially online advertising is just bought one type of marketing and one type of promotion that's available to to marketers. So yes, one channel at of many may be in danger of becoming a relevant because people never wanted to get it received messages through that channel. Anyway. When you're talking about attention, we forget that.
People don't care, you know, I'm trying to interrupt someone's day and take away their valuable time to talk about my product, which they may or may not be interested in it also. Yet. The onus is on us marketers to figure out better ways of reaching prospects in ways that are interesting and entertaining and valuable. And the model so far has been really take advantage of a monopoly on distribution to interrupt people in the middle of the contents. You know, Darren something that is on my mind, and I've been talking about it on the
show for the last few weeks as this idea that may be over the top is not the solution than maybe over the top is. You know, more about fragmenting and I think there's a lot to be said about this loose the same thing going on with this framing model that, you know. I know this is getting complicated on my part, but you know when you think about the way the cable t v model work. You know, a few big networks continued to get most of
the money from the ad revenue while the rest of the rest of the networks that are on the cable package were subsidized because users were paying for cable packages and you know the- they got this. In this small bump these carriage fees as a result of being able to be on the line up of a cable network. And it seems like we need a solution like that. We need to go back from the alcart mess that were in and get into a situation where the
carrier is may be giving a little kick back to the networks in order to provide this long tail content with enough revenue to continue. And I think but when we're thinking in digital, I am just going back to doing what we think of digital. It's just so hard to do that. You know it so many different audiences, so many different blogs, and then we go into the entire influence or a micro influence game. I do think that. For these smart marketers, the
smart agency using digital using over the top, using even television advertising and making that mix is what's going to be effective. It's what's gonna allow you to see some type of our away and engagement from that television as spot that you now placed on. Let's say a Facebook in many different media companies amid so the user able to click engage in the in goal to let's say, your website or landing page for that. But it's going to take I think smart
media, and it's going to take more integrated media. And the industry is still in silos, right? You still have your television. You still have your digital print, you know, even O t. T that entire conversation in itself. And so until we get more integrated into we start having conversations across department. I think that that's. Where all of this, the media ecosystem has its worst. I'd say it it, that's it.
Problem, it's not being. Is there, is there a better solution? Does anybody have a better solution? Well, one of the thing that I'm thinking about is maybe we learned our relearn on history and actually tied the brand's more closely to the content that is being shown. I know Peter might actually has something to say about this because that's something that W n. Y c. and public radios tend to do pretty well in terms of having brands,
support a particular type of reporting, why particular reporting vertical. And I think if you'll looking historically at the say, the television model, that's where some of the initial T v. shows where support it. And so maybe that's we need to go back to something like this in the digital realm. Well, they call it brandy content. Now, you know, like it's that idea that we create something new where it's not new at all to your. You told
something that started when television was invented, but we start making these new terms and make it more difficult than it actually is. Right. I mean, if you want to go back even further. Then is it the the the night before Christmas, that book was actually written by think is wanna makers department store for something to give out his gifts, what people stopped at the store. So brands creating content is in a sort of his old is advertising itself and brands have to learn to become
more creative again. And it's more work to try and create something of value for your customers. That's either written content media content or or some kind of experience content. I think what we've what we're feeling the results of and I think a lot of this conversation is about how marketers have from the last 60 years 70 years become really lazy because things like television made communicating to mass audience is creatively really, really simple and really cheap to buy. And now it's
becoming hard again. And maybe that's where agency create the rise of the agency. Creative is going to come from. The rise of the [laughter] come on the agency creatives have already risen up in the running. The roost [laughter]. Well, moving on, I wanted to talk about another topic is very, very similar. Become less effective. We hear more more about shrinking consumer attention spans. Now there's
too many distractions out there. We understand that. You know you have the situation with the cell phones, the of the situation with computers and in tablets, and you have people on the go instead of sitting down in the living room to watch their content. You've got distractions all round, but Darren is consumer attention the real problem, or is there something else Elsa play here mug may be what I suggested earlier. Like the odds aren't good enough. What, what would you say? I think the idea of
short attention spans as insight, but it shouldn't be a foundation for why advertisers are moving. Shorter at forms rate, I remember the industry flagging heavily to this model shortly, maybe at their snapped chat, made it a popular when they were making their rounds around the industry prior to their appeal for me. It doesn't matter if an ad is six seconds or 30 seconds. It what matters is the story, you're telling it matters who you're still telling the story to end. It's culturally connected to their lifestyle in
tech grader. Agency, six. Second ads are fine are fine challenge, but they might not. Fully express the mission of the brand, and as an advertiser, it could increase my vanity metrics, but what's the efficacy, right? So understanding the community, you're creating content four will help you stay relevance. Audiences. And you know, from a campaign perspective, I may be introduced my brand with the six second ad. That's. Know, non intrusive and as I build trust with that community with that specific audience
audience, I extend my add maybe 3rd 15 30, Forty-five, or even longer. You know, I've seen some successful six second ads, but it's not taking over the industry as a whole yet. And I've seen some really great against short ads. I've seen some longer at forms that have really compelled me to watch until the end. And so while attention span is something that we should think about, we should also be thinking about who we're talking to and is the creative that we're
making compelling enough for them to sit and watch. I do. One of I would want to push back a little bit here because I actually agree with you for the most part about the fact that six second ads are not a panacea. They're not going to solve the problems in that. The you need to be able to tell a larger story, however. When you're talking about a brand that is well known and well accepted and has good river good awareness scores across the
board, a six seconds is enough most of the time to get across your message. Like I can still tell you that during an this is not because of an advertising this just because it was effective. You know it's during the Olympics. I still remember the Toyota was always doing those six second ads in between the breaks, you know? And it was effective because I understand who Toyota is. I know what their mission is. I know what they they make. I understand what they're trying to do. I understand
the concepts that they were, they were trying to get across, and it was done in six seconds because I have all this brand memory already attached to it. You know, if you had a new start up or a company that people would never heard of doing something like that, it would be completely ludicrous to do a succeed. Yeah, yeah, for sure. I think it only worked for big brands and even then if it's not done well or if the history of the brand is not as solidify, let's say as a Toyota, it
doesn't make sense. Sometimes I was just thinking about a five gum commercial that they actually play. As a a commercial on ethics or they were and I just didn't understand what it meant. I think it was a six or second, seven second ad. And I just didn't understand it. It just did not make sense for me. I think it's a part of having it's a very new ought storytelling method. And so if you don't have the correct agency creating that six second ad din you're not going to get your story across
even if it's only 4 brand awareness. And you know, then we have to look at how much brand awareness do we want to see, especially with all mine advertiser versus someone taking action. And a six second ads allow you. Some went to know what they're buying or get them entice enough to click or or two. Really engage which are brand it does work. I've seen marketers have looked at research, said they love it. They actually suggests 10 seconds or less, which gives you
some extra time. But the majority of them are still going for fifteen to 30 thirties, just as much as their coffers. I also think that I think it was Peter who brought up the timing of the free, the ads in the frame male model versus. You know, paying for Dell ads, I think the timing of the ads is also important. I think he raised a really good point when my time is precious and I want to be listening to music. I don't wanna be
disrupted by an ad, so I would have more patience to listen to watch or listen to a longer add a quality if the timing suit at may as well. Yeah, yeah, we have a lot of good evidence of this. Impoverished casting were all often we've made adds there were somewhat more extravagant for interactive and somehow engaging and tied to the host or the contents in some interesting way. Perhaps a theme here really needs to be that advertisers in France can't be lazy about this stuff. It takes. It takes
thoughts breakthrough and by the way fact jacket while I was wrong, it's Rudolph. The red nosed reindeer that was published by Montgomery. Yeah, I thought that was kind of strange because I'm sitting there going that is not true [laughter]. Well, but let's let's talker. Bring this back cause I think we're getting off the rails, talking about shorter content and how we can effectively communicate to an audience in shorter format versus longer formats, or whether or not longer formats need to be
married to shorter formats and everything else along those lines. But what about consumer attention Tristan I mean, it's the sledges consumer attention really the problem here or have we just reneged on our deal with consumers and consumers are fed up with us. I mean, which would you say is the bigger problem in how to advertisers need to respond to that? The lose your trust on. Probably
did. Well, I'll add one thing to that, which is seen research that measures media consumption and shows that people now consume more media than their time is that they're actually awake because of beauteous stacking their on the phone while they're watching T v. while they're listening to something else. So I do think attention has become much more scarce it it has. But there's also a bit of a backlash happening from the consume Murray's. I mean, we're seeing it was number of consumers Atari installing at
blogger on device because frankly they're fed up with the with the poor quality content that's been pushed onto them. And I think that's I knew that we keep circling the same topic here, but it goes back to the quality of the content at will pushing in the direction. Well, that's right now, you know, we talked about supply and demand. There's also almost endless supply of advertising now because of whereas, they used to be a very specialized. Very specialized skill.
And you had to go to a handful of big ad agencies that created advertising to get onto these relatively difficult channels. You couldn't just walk out and by t v. But now you can you can walk out, you could sit in your apartment in place ads on Google YouTube anywhere show up all around the world said, there's no longer any skill involved. Even creating were buying advertising near. We've talked about this in the program before, and I love this. If if you've never read Madison Avenue manslaughter, and I know the audience is probably singer my God, he's going to recommend
that book again. But. Madison Avenue manslaughter by Michael farmer kind of takes you through this process that during the worst recession in U s. history during the seventies advertising was gay making more money than any other industry because media was scarce, you know, and you could still charge fifteen percent on everything that you plays. So was an endless cash cow because business was down. Everybody was advertising when business is down the media with static. You ended up with a
lot more money, but that's just not the case now. And we have so much content out there. And so many advertising opportunities in the programatic universe is just going gangbusters. And you've got 500 cable channels that you can advertise on menopause on any particular cable line up. I mean, how do we stay consistently relevant? Darn, I mean to an audience that's so discriminating at this point upon which kind of conduct they're going to watch. I think it and I
hate to say it again. It goes back into the quality as it mo- it's more so culturally awareness or cultural awareness, right? And it takes time from the agency, it takes time on the marketers side to understand and go back to the audience being the first thing that we're looking at and what are their interests, what did they like? What are they engaging, gone, and then wet content? Are we now putting our brand or or matching our brand to. You know, I say this all the time
and go into a tent, gone back to attention span, that gen z millennial there on YouTube pebbly watching 30 minute clips of their favorite influencers there on Instagram T v. that just watch that has an ability for a long form content to 60 seconds both in theater in vertical view. So long form content will always be there. And I think it's on us to make sure that we're integrating ourselves and our campaigns into how
people are watching not necessarily thinking that they're not watching her. They don't have the time to do things. I think as everyone has said, people are doing multiple things in our engaging with multiple forms of media at once. And it does take away what traditionally would look at us as being a focused on one s- specific media channel, but people have been doing it well. And if you look at how people used Twitter to live, tweet, and how that boosted content
and brand awareness for television shows, right? How can we accept this new reality and start to move forward is my question and infra get about the insights around, you know, people don't are paying attention, and millennial is lazy. They won't watch adds. It's about what's actually connecting to them that they will interact with this. And if we're thinking about that, then we don't have to worry about we will have to worry about the content channels that we're putting things on, but we won't have to worry
about the attention span of the consumer. Well, speaking of content that connects with consumers, the days of viral fuel, good videos, getting endless shares on Facebook seemed to have been long gone. But with the advent of Facebook watch the video streaming service, some publishers are claiming that feel good content is still pulling in phenomenal numbers, which I find completely fascinating in a little troubling. So building on the idea of staying
relevant to consumer interests, is this tactic something that advertisers should be kind of exploring further in making part of their repertoire? Yeah, I think that they should and the reason that I think they shed and something that we haven't touched upon in any of these discussions is the human condition and what actually elicits or evoke a response from people.
I think everybody loves a feel good commercial, whether you're, you know, from from another older generation or your from the millennial Jan Jan are jenex genji or whatever. So I think that. That's one thing that connects us all that connects all the generations and all of us as human beings. And one thing we also didn't touch upon in this
is. Is loyalty, you know you have this whole, you have this whole millennial generation in this is you know again, I don't mean to digress back to the free me a model. This is this fluid conversation. I'd love when we pull back from a previous topics. You just keep going [laughter]. So one of the other reasons why a question you know, the validity of the freemen model is because I wonder how much loyalty it actually built over time. And you know, again, with all
this with all this content that's out there and all this quick growth. I don't think that it takes into consideration a building of relationships, which then create loyalty. And I think that that's a. Particularly a challenge with the younger generations, a particular challenge that advertisers are going to have in capturing the attention of the younger generations. But when it comes to on, you know. Touching
upon hitting the earth as a human element, I think that's what you have to go with because that's what always gets a response. Every time I post something on Facebook, whether it's you know, I'd posted videos that are, you know, 20 minutes long. I don't know if you use the the. Kerry yoki with Paul McCartney I mean that was like a 20 minute video and it got it. Got. I mean, hundreds of
re of repose, send people commenting because it had missed out. It was reminiscent it was it just made you feel good? It was familiar and had all these songs that everyone loves. But putting counterpart big, putting counterpoint to that, because I think you're you're right. I mean content like that that his fuel good. That's really uplifting, tends to be really something that connects with an audience. However, when you're talking about deploying it from an advertising standpoint. First of all, if
you're doing a truly self sacrificing fuel, good video, you know you've got to figure out how your brand connects in it in all its coming down to his borrowed interest as opposed to really direct value being generated from the ad. And then when you try to do something that self serving, it's open to criticism. So I'm wondering whether or not. You know, it will work for any brand or just a brand that
is actually committed and known for the the feel good elements that are being presented. So, but Bob, I think that that's actually part of the wider discussion around call and social responsibility, right? Millennial want to see brands that are socially aligned with, would they believe in. And so the messaging that happens, the feel good messaging must the line with a brand kind of mission. And in a
world where increasingly messaging has gotten politicized and where all political parties are now operating in totally different spheres, trying to bring people back to the middle ways. Those kinds of feel good messages that appeal to everyone is probably the only way brands can truly differentiate themselves. I agree. Yeah, I would agree with that and just just to underscore one
quite I would have I would have set something regarding authenticity, but I'm not sure that we've ever really correlated advertising with authenticity Roy's. I'll clean my point. I mean, it seems like this is a great opportunity for content providers to capitalize on Facebook, again, by generating these fuel good videos from an advertising standpoint. I think a big red flag goes up because of the authenticity problem and really having to do some soul searching
about whether or not your brand is connected strongly enough with the fuel good message that's being presented or whether it's just gonna look self serving in kind of opportunistic. Right. I think that's an opportunity for the agency to step into a more. Concentrated approach to its client, right? For us, we talk about, Tammy, I love the idea of resonating, right? Creating that rebel relatively content, but in order to
retain any consumer, particularly millennial, you have to have consistent content consistency, not only in your content, but also in your mission. So things like the Papa John's, a big situation. Will not connect to something if they put out on Facebook, a happy go lucky type of ad because they're within a scandal right now. You know? So it doesn't fit their brand. People are moving away from it. It would not resonate.
They would not retain their their consumers, specifically millennial. So I do think that it's filled content, but out- outside of even filled it contacting gets content that is authentic. You look at the Super Bowl commercials, a home I think of two years ago, right? And things that resonated with conversations. And with the human nature of people did well because it's struck a common core. And I think that that's what was so successful with Facebook in the pill, good
content that we're seeing. We saw that with little things. When they were alive, the idea that they were making so much great field, the content that they were, you know, a number, a top five or top 10 publisher on Facebook itself. I don't think that advertisers as a whole can grapple with it or or grout grab on to it. Unless there advertise or their marketers and their clients are actually connected to that at the foundation of the
mission of the company. And I think this fits really, really nicely into what you teach and talk about me. You know, it's a sly guy. I feel like I've been kind of interrupting you, and I think I need to come back to it because this is really something that is cooler to what you always preach about, which is consistency of message. And really getting to the core identity of the brand. Whether you're talking about a corporate brand or you're talking about an individual Brown. Absolutely, and
I mean, I always tell people, you know, when they're embarking on their careers, authenticity is key, but it's also, you know, when you're marketing yourself, it's also you know, we have multiple dimensions and were quite broad. It's also selecting, you know, a certain to reveal a certain part of your personality or persona in the appropriate. Place so you know, I mean with brands
it may be a little bit different. They might not be as as broad and diverse as a human personality, but there certainly are elements that you can highlight and showcase of depending on what you think will appeal to the audience. I think it's more critical nowadays for advertising and companies to be authentic and aligned with their advertising and their true mission because they will be uncovered. You know, years ago when we didn't have so much
access to so much information at our fingertips, it became more difficult to challenge. Like if you had an ad for say, Monsanto at they tried to sell you on some good that they're doing when you know that their nest, when most people won't know whether they are really doing good or not doing good. But nowadays, you'll just Google it right up and you'll find, you know what the company's doing it, what they're all about near like way. They just sold me this great feel good out. What a what? A what? A felony. So I
do think it nowadays with information being so accessible so quickly, you know, companies and advertisers have to be careful to make sure that they're messaging is aligned. And that's a perfect segue into the next topic, which is. I wanted to talk next about data whenever the lack of data, and while most advertisers can point to targeting solutions using their wealth of data that they have at their disposal. Tristan wire, so very few businesses, immediate companies still
resisting operational changes that are indicated by the insights that we're uncovering. I mean, it seems like we have this big gap between data analytics and understanding verses actually doing something with the data and taking concrete actions to affect the consumer in meaningful ways. What. I think I can reduce this answer to four words. Change
is hard. I can really see through four other words, not enough money available [laughter]. I mean, when you're talking about taking the data, which talks about the perception of your organisation and then reshaping the organization to change the perception of that organization. It takes time. And not only does take time, but it takes money. And when you've got a choice between pleasing, you'll
shareholders. By increasing the number of sales and therefore potentially doing things that may not be in the field good arena of things like cutting staff for exporting jobs on all things on those mines verses. Make fundamental change that he's going to take a long time to really return on your investment. You're going to look at the short term, and you're going to make the decisions that are actually most applicable to the short term. And that's why no matter how much data will
presenting it's going to be very difficult for organizations to turn round. Now, there are some ways in which news organizations can turn around. One is if your founding team is already there and really believes in a message, always finding team is returning. I think the example of this was probably the best example of this apple. Where people had lost its way the founder came back. Put the company back on the track and that let it until he died. The
other times when change conditions operated is when the company is having a fundamental identity crisis. I think you could argue that, you know the current situation was Papa. John's may actually create an opportunity for them. The company or the controversies that have existed around Starbucks are allowing them to create a new dialogue with the consumer and potentially changed the fundamentals of
operationally of the company to line up more with where they want to take the company. You know, Peter, I want to continue this conversation with you because if I can think of one great company that has done a phenomenal job of taking data and actually putting it in the action, it would have to be what you guys are doing with pod casting as a whole. I mean, you've you understood not just that this was a big movement in the industry in the audience and the potential, but you also saw that it was
an opportunity for you guys to make money in a meaningful way from ad revenue because you are no longer being restricted by the covenants with public radio and public broadcast airwaves. It's a phenomenal story. How how did you guys manage the well? I mean, I think we're lucky that despite being ah. A 94 year old public media company in a nonprofit were actually particularly entrepreneurial group. And I think
there's a lot of us are just in New York in came for commercial media, and we saw the opportunity emerging. The other thing that happens in public radio that that's a advantageous is because we're supported by these these contributions from our members. We have this direct connection Yemen. There's no better data point that people let us know what they're dollars every day. What if they like what we're doing or not? And they happen to be a particularly vocal group [laughter] our medical error on something you'll
hear about it within 10 minutes from listeners. But you know the data points that we use. I think it'd become even more interesting since getting into the pot gas business. And I think we're we've become extremely data Centric and trying to understand what people like in terms of the content that we create. What listening patterns are, and in fact, it's through this data that we're able to know, for example, that our listeners do not skip the ads. And we can tell when they do
as you could begin to know like who they did, not like that. And maybe we need to be more like this. So paying attention to date, I think most media companies are particularly good at this, and we happen to be swimming and data and look at it all the time that I think that most media companies are good, it noticing the data and then using the data for targeting audience, but they're not very good about making that marching order to change the
operational structure and to implement new paradigm for how to go out into the marketplace and deliver content. I mean, often it just comes boils down to Reno. This about the audience. Let's use this data to target this audience with an advertisement from this brand in a net flicks not Amazon, not a lot of people who may be you may call media businesses today that started out as technology. Maybe there in lies, the rub. Yeah, very, very true. Very true.
Durn w- know you work with data on a regular basis. Do you see this as being as much a problem is the author of this article seems to suggest that data is not being put into action, or is it less is a less about that or and more about just managing the data I- I think it's a management of the data is also the insights that come from the data. And I've. You know, worked with clients who wanted so many
data points because that's a larger again conversation in the industry. But when you give them the day that the data or you give them the insights, they're still slow to change operationally. In many of those insights in many of those data points dew point to some things that you need to change internally, particularly for media companies. And I think because it's such a slow point of change, maybe from a next -secutive perspective or even resource perspective. You
know, we have all of this data, but many companies can't do anything with it. Some the companies who are doing things with it. The companies like Amazon, like net flicks. Who are using that taken that data to inform their platform are going to be the ones who are winning and the next, not even five years, but I think three years, if not now. And so one of the problems I have with the with the example of a net flicks in Amazon is their via myths.
You know, they control so much of the market place and you know to say that they're using the data and the you've you use your data and operationalize you data. You could be just as effective. It's it seems kind of silly to the put forward because you know you're at such a disadvantage to the data in the analytics that are available to these big company hut. I disagree with you, and I think that really there was an important when it was made a little bit earlier, which is a desert difference between data and
insights. And you know, this. Sentence that tossed off poplar data being the annual oil. And I think it's a very rural area because because oil by itself is completely useless oil when it is process and refined then becomes either a fuel or plastic. And so that. That's where real value is derived, and I think data by itself is completely useless data when it's properly on lies. And then put in play and turned into
insights becomes really something valuable when you don't have to actually have a massive amount of data in order to turn it into valuable insight. But the the quote that article a little bit further about the data is the new oil. The problem with that, the paradigm or that image or metaphor is the fact that. Data is plentiful and silver insights were oil is something that is scarce and can rise in value based on the availability that's
there. So you know, from a standpoint of data, we have so much data, what we need is action, and it's just like, it seems like so many companies are too, so afraid to take action, Tammy. Wha- what we do you have any last thoughts on this, any thoughts on whether or not companies what what companies can do to to manage their data flow better so that they can actually put it into action in meaningful ways at a quicker pace? Yeah, well, I mean, I don't work in in media, but I
do work at a big corporation, and I do now that turning shifting the strategy of a big corporation is like. Literally, trying to get the Titanic to avoid the iceberg. It's it's just slow. It's peer Craddock. Oftentimes your leadership is it an aligned and doesn't necessarily agree, and there's risks involved. You know, unless you're facing some type of you know, serious existential crisis and
your survival is threatened. There is no real impotence for for a change if if it's working or working reasonably well, then why fix it. So I think that there's a certain reluctance within corporations to make any dramatic changes. And it's it's difficult to do even if you wanted to fail. The also to the point of
data by itself is sort of meaning less, you know? The insights that you you garner from the data. It it could be a matter of someone's perception. I know that, you know we do a lot of analytics as in my company, by often times you have this di- and how you slice it is going to give you a certain results, especially when you look at
something like the table data, which is how we measure success of of, you know, various investment banking transactions. You know, you come out saying, oh, this banks number one in this banks, number one. But it depends on how you cut the data with his number of deals, whether it's volume of deals and stuff like that. So you'll always have to. You know, take data and look at it with contacts, said, there's a certain unreliability to it as well. And when you're on the management board, it's very
difficult to say, okay, this is the data that was given to me by our internal strategy group and. You know, do I trust the opinion of this group to now change the direction of the entire ship? I mean, there's a lot of risks involved. That makes so much sense to me. That makes so much sense because we we talk over and over again about you can make the dead to say anything you want it to say that makes it hard for companies to get behind the data and make decisions because the data can be interpreted in
dozens of different ways. I mean, it's not always the same, same result every time you look at it. So that's. That's that's problematic while we're running out of time, so it's time for the outfield five but before we get to that segment of the show, I do want to take this quick opportunity to thank my guests again and allow them the each to a shameless plug starting with tomorrow. Last check. You can find her tomorrow. Last took.com. Don't worry about the spelling, have the link in the show notes, seeking coat there to tell me what's going on
in your world. What would you like to promote? Well, I've just recently launched my website which has an interactive blog where people can write in Korea questions, and I respond in two ways one by Email and the other with a blot, an anonymous blog posts. They don't use people's names when they write me their question. And so it's getting a lot of traction on a lot of popularity cell. I would encourage anyone who is looking to
enhance their career and meet some strategic advice to reach out and ask a question and time is incredibly helpful. I mean, one of I had a great time talking with you over coffee recently, so thank you very much for participating in the program. Next up Tristan Louis, you can find him a case book.not that's where he see, oh, the newly appointed C e. O from what they say on the website. Tell us what's going on in your world and what would you like to promote peace. But that net has nothing
to do with marketing because we actually help the people at on the front line into helping the most vulnerable members of our society with software. So I'm not going to promote this to this particular audience because it would be the wrong content with the wrong audience. What I'm going to ask everyone in the audience to do though is if you do know someone that does not listen, listen to the being cast, they tell them, let's let's fantastic. Yeah. And I echo the we need lots more listener,
so definitely definitely do that for us. Thank you very much. Jerusalem. Next up, we have Darren Martin you can find him at many different websites, but the one I'm going to promote today is streamlined media.c. O that's the home of streamline media, the company where he is chairman, tell us what's going on in your world Durn what would you like to promote? Yeah, thank you. Bob diesel streamline media, and communication is a independent parent company. We actually have two companies that were running streamline
media's a digital media communications agency. So if you want more customers or you're trying to build more audiences that are often ticking that she actually can retain, you can reach us@get streamlined.co- in bulk cultures, a multi-culture communication agency. And so we work with brands and agencies to authentically connect to diverse audiences and also change their internal structure to resonate and retain divers talent. So you can find us@bowl culture.co- and we were
recently featured in the can issue of at weeks out when a shadow out our team for that. And that's how I manage to get in touch with you reserve that article. I it's it's like I'd read the black paper long ago and I said, man, I gotta get in touch with them. So we had a fantastic time talking. Very glad to have you on the program. Hope you'll come back. Thank you so much, and next up we have Peter one guard. You can find him at W n. Y c..org. That's the home of New York, public radio Thomas. What's going on in your world Peter, what would you like oil?
You know we're busy. Hey, the midterm elections were going to be coming up soon. I would encourage all listeners in Americans to pay close attention to what's going on in their local racist. I'd say support independent journalism by supporting your local public radio station and listened to lots of odd guests. Yes, yes. And a good source for fog. Gus is W n. Y c. such phenomenal content going on over there. So definitely checked them out of your having already. As for me for more information about me or the show visit, the being cast a calm
there, you can find a complete show archive. You can find out how to consult with me, and you can even find out how to advertise on the program. So check it all out. The being cast dotcom and don't forget. Transcribe me dotcom slush being cast as the place where you can get your transcriptions done. They are the official partner transcription partner at the being cast. And that's where you're getting your transcriptions of the show. Now they are about a week behind the episodes, but if you need a transcription check it out on the site. And now it's time for the ad fell
five or run down of the lowest moments in advertising marketing and public relations from the last week. And first up when you're the chairman of Papa John's already dealing with the negative PR of standing against the NFL players protests Peter. It's probably not a good idea to trot out the N word on a conference call with your agency. No matter what the context. Any time at all right. I'm like guy who thought this was a good idea, especially
given the the situation is then it's like, you know, you're adding fuel to a burning fire. Is explanation of what they were trying to do was kind of strange. The whole thing is rather unfortunate. I think we're going to see a lot more. I would assume so now next up two more agency executives bite the dust over bad behavior, Jeremy Perot a top creative veteran American health and Ogilvy chief creative officer, Tom climbing.
You know, Darren, I'm looking at this and it's it's just seems like it's an endless parade of blackmail failure going on in our industry right now. Yeah, it's like Peter said, with the Papa John's situation, it's going to continue to happen. Things are going to continue to be uncovered. I just tell you to expect more. No one can I just make one comment? Yes. It's going to happen because we're
all human. Okay. And we're living our our lives under a microscope with sites social media's. I mean, we are bound to screw up. That's what humans do. And it's just a matter of time. So I'm not I'm not excusing his behavior. I'm just saying that we're all going to screw up, and all we can hope for is that we're going to get some kind of compassion that point addicting. They talk about which
we're going to have to have a conversation on to figure out how do we reckon with grace in understanding as with also acts that may not a line with our values is definitely big conversation. Well, mixed up even funnier, if not more, disgusting, crazy story that came up this past week wine maker lot eighteen in partnership with M g. M released a selection of wines based on the hand paid stale.
Oh my God, I can't believe they did this twist on anyway, based on the handmaid still, because nothing Peres better with use and rape like a fine peano inspired by offered strengthened determination. Bob guy, I used to work with many years ago at the ad agency used to have a game. He would play Napier listeners can play in right in which is always try to think of what's the worst possible brand extension [laughter] reparation H cereal
[laughter] go on and on. But. As soon as the story came up, I figured this is kind of the other side of the coin on the on the meeting movement hits the. No, no, we're not going to go with me to movement and try to extend our brand completely in the other direction. Well, next up minor league baseball team, the Montgomery biscuits, I should just end it right now. [laughter] Montgomery biscuits created
millennial mode reading from the tweed a rare. This is great timing. Riverwalk stadium will be millennial friendly on Saturday, July 20 first with a participation riven give away just for showing up mapping in sylvie's stations along with lots of avocados. Obviously, quite a few people were not amused by [laughter] we say that Cowan doesn't properly translating in EBay. Alan taxed in Sao can
be very careful. I think that this is one example of, you know, the humor or the sarcasm not being picked up. Just a it was a bomb [laughter] may maybe you shouldn't have jenex hers or or older generations, right stuff aimed at millennial. Maybe that could be the first rule, the first rule of advertising and last, but not least in a sales promotion, gone
horribly horribly wrong, darn build a bear workshop offered bears priced at the age of your child for one to what could go wrong [laughter] terrible shared this on Facebook, and I just imagine the horror that someone will have to sit in lines ingests. It's just too crazy. I I think it was a cute promotion, but I wonder if the value. The really should have fought
through this. Nobody thought through this and in happened across the entire globe. I mean, their entire global footprint participated in this in there was crying children in every single location with one word nightmare. I would not want to be a Bill to bear employee at a day [laughter]. We'll have something to add to this list or just want to discuss it. Comment on line use the hash tag add fell five pound add fell in the number five. Well, that does it for this week's show if you'd like to
subscribe to this pod cast a visit, our website@the being coast.com and click on the subscribe link. If you're Nigerians listener, we've also provided a direct link to the eye teams. Music store were just search for the being cast in the pod cash directory of vitamins, and whichever pod goes directory you use when you subscribe, please leave reserve. You gotta comment of a question we'd love to hear from you just under emails to being cast a female dotcom opening theme was performed by Joseph Cambell
closing theme by sea jacks. Thanks for listening, Bob nor p- will be back again next week. Hope you'll join us then. It's
exactly. I want to apologize on nodding slow on unyielding when like you were reaching out to me, somehow it actually played really well in that it was the lack of attention segment, but tough.