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For Monday to I the 2000 it's time for this week's edition of the being cast a weekly discussion about the news and issues facing marketers. Today. I'm Haas Baltimore. Thanks for joining.
Once again, were asking whether production house is all for the new agency model. Only this time, the money is backing a theory. Now, traditional agencies face pressure from both of bulb and below the law. How should they respond? Will discuss also why Google seems immune to Facebooks woes. Whether more digital is the answer to retail experienced party. Why we hate reward.
Plus this week's had fell five. That's the lineup. Lets me tonight panel. Thanks for joining us for this week's been cast. I'm Bob nor and with me on the panel for this evening, restart with the super advisor at the innovations scout author, speaker and long time being customer mister Joseph Jaffe. Hey, Joe. Hey, Bob, how're you fantastic? It's it's great to have you on
the program you've been coming on since like you're too. I think it's and I will continue to keep coming on until the listening audience sends me will fiann [laughter]. No also worth is we're excited the welcome back senior consultant at management and marketing consultancy. Explain. Ms. Holly, no, to- Holly. Hi. A bomb high. Thanks for having me. My pleasure and finally were pleased to have the president and chief creative officer at all scope and
board member. Mash burn enterprises mister Jonathan's Sackett Jonathan welcome. You guys will be happy to know that I am not at a flock of seagulls concert tonight just to be on this show and I'm not kidding [laughter]. Impressed by the [laughter]. [laughter]. I just need to know what your hair looks right like [laughter] while I was all set to go. So I think you know what it looks like, Greg. How's pictures later?
Well, moving onto the topics. Look, if we learned one thing from the recent unpleasantness between Sir Martin and W p. P over the acquisition of media monks. It's that production houses are pretty hot them factors such a hot commodity that big players like W p. P in sir, Morton's new entity seemed to be really interested in spending millions and millions and millions and millions of dollars. Clients are looking to dissenter mediate. The agency relationships in the production houses were stepping into
the gap everywhere. Joe, we've discussed this trend before on the show, but do the recent events highlight an uptick in how should agencies respond? So I was I was trying to think of which Angola wanted to take with with this topic, and and I think the first thing that I was thinking of his production seems to be kind of the the loss best in all. Maybe the next best in two full in terms of the agency model, being questioned and ultimately to
Santa mediated. Certainly we've in a most of the compensation has taken place around the media business, the UN bundling of media media scrutiny possession. And certainly in know now when we look at programatic and we look at buying et cetera, and then of course, digitization as well in you see put all of those things together. In a we've always taken aim at the four or five million dollar Super Bowl bottle as I called it the stupid bowl spot. But the reality is no one ever spoke about the
1 1 and a half two million dollars being spent on production. And how much of that was going to the agency? And and of course, this happening at the same time as Doritos was. Crushing the Super Bowl getting consumers to create those spots essentially for free. And so I was thinking about that, you know this that's the macro trained in terms of recognizing today more more often than not a more so than ever before the creators, the makers, the influences, the advocates. There's a thorough, the just
the freelance as the just disgruntled creatives that are actually out there moonlighting as well. Can I disagree with you just for a little bit right away? Because I think that when we may my point yet and you disagreeing with me well, but I mean it's a cigarette talking about the fact that the production houses are a real valuable asset for the the clients. But I don't think that that's the actual trend. I think the bigger trend is that the value of consultancy
and the value of creed of opportunity is no longer is valuable to the clients and that the clients can bring all that in house and have a closer connection to the production. And that's the valuable commodity that the production houses can be collaborative with the with the client and a much more intentional way. They can create the spots from soup to nuts and they can deliver the production and they can do it at a much more in a much more efficient way. The gives the
client more control. And I think the ultimate trend is that the clients want more control. It might not wrong. Well, listen, I don't think you're actually disagreeing with me. I think you're scared you're on a power, low politics, in the sense that and by the way, I don't mind if somebody of a disagrees you disagree with me all the time [laughter] but but the family's joy disagree with us [laughter] agree with that. But you know the other part of that is, is that in reading some of the source articles, a lot of this is happening
because the likes of p and g and so on and so forth such as cutting their budgets. Which again, is this continuous, vicious circle of vicious cycle, and so what's to do when all this opacity and and and fat bolt into this this and end, you know, built into the motto is suddenly up for grabs. So. So yes, you're right. Bob control is important, but this is, you know, unfortunately, or fortunately gonna come down to one thing and one thing on and that's money. And that's bottom line
and cutting costs because it's the only way to to preserve some semblance of growth in the entire marketing ecosystem. So you know, you've got that and then you've got this I mean the whole idea of bringing it in house or outsourcing, etcetera, that that is. That's a bit of a smoke screen. At the end of the day, I think. Part of this is recognizing that they are a variety of new and exciting sources and resources to be able to.
Emulate and even improve on the creative product and until the agency's can come to the table with something that is comparable. That a cheap Admiral foster they're going to continue to struggle to justify this production dollars. Yeah. Okay. I I agree with you in spirit that the the the clients are looking to potentially. Carrying the consolidate this whole MIT media mix into the into the puzzle. I mean, I
think we're not that far apart on this. But I'm looking at whether or not this is the time for production houses to really rise to the top or agencies in trouble. And that's the core of my my my questioning in Jonathan watch what's your thoughts on that? I mean his dislike is the agency as we know it in trouble as a result of production houses and how do they were, should how should they respond to this? Yeah, I mean, this has been going on for
a long time and it's also been a long time coming. So. You know, because I mean, let's face it. I've worked for all the biggest holding companies. Okay, so it's been a constant challenge. Do you do wait label your production partners because let's face it to start an advertising agency. All you need is a computer. Ok. And what they're historically the the big agencies I've been at a local via Benedetti be have been Martin I bet at Arnold. And what you do is you sell em a staffing plan and the new outsource all the work. So what is the client really
getting for what they're paying for? You know, that's the question I I got to tell you if I was a production house right now. You know what I would do. I would hire a couple of heavy hitting guns, see, got their names with your brand, and I would go after and take take all the business away from the big agencies. They're in trouble in their hurting and they're all cutting back because the clients are cutting back because it's a perfect storm. All the agency's though have built their own big production houses or trying to buy them. I mean, that's why media monks was
such a valuable asset, but for but W p. P and why Sir, Martin wanted it so badly. I mean, it was. It was a larger foothold into that particular world. I'm in W p. p.'s been pretty straightforward about their intentness in this place. We know it's this like you've got. You've got via mail already under the W p. p.. Banner and via Email is is kickin ass. I mean, they're doing a credible things. Yeah. And you know, you don't the part
of the problem in a voice said, this is at at that level of these agencies. It's a lot of it is run by ego and what happens for some reason. As soon as they bring in a production house, the agencies is sort of part of the agency family, whether it's in a public on the conduct BP what happens is because of ego they don't want to work with them because suddenly now that you're part of us, you're not as good because. You gotta be you, you're going to be a better. You're gonna be a better production house. If we have to stare across the street at you. So that's that's the challenge they have as soon as they bring went into the
family, the model work that they're giving to them gets cut back. So yes, to getting more volume, but they're getting less work on a pre agency basis. It's just it's a weird ego thing. Yeah, is is definitely a weird culture shift within the agency model. And you know the more interesting thing that that really rises up from this conversation, Holly is the fact that the agencies are now experiencing pressure from both sides, both above and below the line. I'm you've God above
the line pressure coming from management consultancy, and you've got below the line pressure coming from production houses and the agency's themselves. The traditional agency model needs to decide what do they do. And quite frankly, I don't even begin to know where they should be. Should they be playing closer to the management consultancy realm and being up the consultancy features within the agency, or should they be looking to become more production focused, or should they just block and tackle and be
exactly who they are right now is the vendor of creative. Yes, that is the question. I think that's the important one to answer we play. I know in our experience we play right in that sweet spot of. Management consultancy, we have tons of great advice and strategy to offer, and then we also have our own production facility. And so we sit in this weird area where we're not necessarily an an agency at all, and we found more and more that that's getting her foot in the door. That's getting us to a place
where we are a lower price point. And one thing that I think that pushing that for us is the in house marketing advertising teams. And I know we've talked about this on a previous call when you have an in house marketing team, you have teams of people that are sometimes 30 to 50 large, and they are already spending a lot of their dollars on marketing on employment. Unemployed people to do that work in house. So when it comes down to the production side, it comes down to the consultancy side offering good advice, offering a direction and creativity.
That's where we end up getting a lot of play. And I and I'm wondering if that's where a lot of these agencies relating to start thinking, which is. How do we create opportunity given what we see trending in most large businesses and logos? Yea. The Joe tell me what you think about that. I mean, it's just like, tell me how you believe because what one of the wall I don't disagree with Holly overall. I mean, I think that the agency's do need to be in that sweet spot, and they do need to be creating
a deeper relationship of consultancy while still providing these production. These production opportunities. I still see the fact that management consultancy, these are able to have that relationship, but agencies or continually offering strategy and planning which clients don't want to pay for. And it seems like the shift from, okay, were also a management consultancy. That doesn't seem to be on the table for the agency
world for I think you know. I think if if we go back maybe 25 30 years and actually look at the creative with the production process. It so much of it was visibly and transparently outsource. You know from pre pro to post production to the fact that so many by so many parts of the production process were absolutely built into the model as as as parting with external sources. And I think.
There's no question that this conversation is happening. Like why now why why right now and and and the the digitization of everything has created more complexity for sure, but also more possibilities and and saw. I guess what I'm really thinking is that for the first time may be production isn't just the execution on, but actually can inform the entire process. If you actually look backwards, if you know what's
possible, and if you're able to be able to create versions and functionality, and interactivity and experiences that would possible before that almost informs the idea itself. And actually, you know the the journey to that point. And so in a way, you know, you're talking about the about these agencies being squeezed out from the top down on the bottom up. But it but it's actually all connected and and and that's why this is such a fascinating.
I think topic because of the realms of what is possible. I mean, you can't have this conversation without having I think a conversation about content and content strategy and all the various forms of of enacting and and implementing, and advanced and a strategic content strategy. Because when you do suddenly as I said, production isn't just the you know, the tactical execution on that is a kind of mission critical part of the whole process. Jeff, you hold
on one second boat the job. He brings of a let's a while. That's a multiple. There's a couple of things that I wanted to address their number one. You're absolutely right that that a lot often times we work backwards from something as simple as an effect. Okay. Years ago we did cars dotcom and few member those commercials with the guy with two heads and 1 1 had was happy and one was sad, whatever. But that the idea, the execution, and the idea itself came
from something as simple as an effect like that. So the production companies can come up with those things. But the other bigger thing that that you kind of touched on is this. The holding companies are the are predominantly the ones buying out the production. So the holding company will buy out a production company because the agency's can't afford to themselves, right? So what you've got is a perfect storm of a family under inter public and Rama com where the production is now part of that family.
But the agencies have to try to justify their existence because they've already built their train tracks, and it's hard that what he can do, fire everybody, and start over. You can't do that. You got to justify your existence. Or is the only getting though to the the heart of the problem that agencies face, which is that they're considered by many of their clients to be nothing more than vendors? And does really doubling down on production, make us more of vendor to our client than ever before, which essentially takes
away all the opportunity to have a meaningful marketing conversation, a meaningful relationship with the c suite. That helps them to understand the marketing is about the entire operational structure of a company and how we touch or consumers. It's this like were not able to do that were vendors of ads and by doubling done on crude production houses, aren't we just saying to the vendors, yes, were saying to the clients, yes.
Were vendors let procurement have their way with us? We'll yet vendor the vendor and the word agency are both four letter words. Right, right. I mean figuratively of course. I can't spell by the way guys [laughter]. In case anybody was questioning that, but you're absolutely right, Bob because it's it's the eatery member with with technical with technology and replication of technology. Everything is getting commoditized. We've got robots doing surgery. We get legal
zoom pushing, attorneys prices down, and advertising agencies are struggling just to make their existence known because they're treated as a vendor, and because the work agency means add. So you're absolutely right. How are we going to jump on that? I have to agree with both of you and just started add to the thinking. I think they consulting side really hits heavily on the content on the strategy, and I think that's really it. You can't automate you. Can't I your way through the creativity or the analytics in the
sense of being able to offer really good advice being able to use your experience. There's nothing that will replace that creativity than I see our teams putting out there that I see so many teams putting up that are more integrated. So I I'm I would double down on white John and Jonathan said, and I would also doubled down on what Joe sat around content. And we just. You can't I know everybody's getting into a situation where the channels are more distributed more digitized, and I think being able to pick ahead of that and being able to offer a
really good strategy is waiting to be key. And then you are less of a commodity. Even if you do have corruption in house or even if you are sort of an end to end service provider. It's not a dirty word to say not only can we make a really slick looking at, but we can tell you exactly which words to say in a way to say at Nick audiences, to reach in how you're going to reach. And I think the more end and we are comprehensive, maybe the better off will be unless monetized I've just made a really big decision over here. I
really like her [laughter]. There's a reason that hallways on the show [laughter]. I finally agrees with me. I'm in [laughter] I'm going to split and then doubled down on both of those hands. Okay, this is going to be linguistic magic. I'm not very good with betting. Well, I'll tell you one thing that says one company that's really good on betting. It seems to be Google. If you had a better one company, you'd
have to say the Google is doing a pretty good job and in a week were face. Book sold 27% drop in its valuation over investor fear about its ongoing viability as an ad platform. Google marched on to new highs. Arguably they each have their fair share of trust issues over data. I think that you can make many cases that Google has many the liabilities that face because so Jonathan, why does Google seemed to remain so
immune to investor worries overall? That is a great question. Bob. Okay, well answered it [laughter] I've got an opinion on. Okay, so I'm sorry, I apologize. I bring this up quite often with you, Bob, I know that and I'm sure that your listeners will know that too, but I'm going to bring it up again. What the you were a pop star yet. We know that go ahead [laughter]. You know, I was a famous rapper under prince rate. We know as I know that not all, but here's who's going to bring up and thank you
for bringing that up up. Okay. So. Years ago when when Google is launching g mail, a reporter called me and had asked me about this and they said, hey, Google said they're gonna read these people's emails. I anybody signs of fridge, Email accounts that can make a better adds serving tool. And they said, do you think that'll affect. People signing up for g mail and I said, absolutely not, and it should, but it won't. Because of sniffer technologies because of actual
vernacular and reading people's emails and serving up things like that, it's going to happen. I get it, and that's the way things work. But I'll tell you something because Google has has not only they own search, but they've also bought up other companies as we know. And Google the word itself has become synonymous with search, right? It's like Kleenex rate. It's just it's become inherent in overnight killer that you Google something. It's become a verb as well. And
I believe my thought on this is. That Facebook was built on a social platform, so as soon as everybody gets all their underwear gets on a bunch because. G. Facebook is they're selling our data, will you know what you signed up for a free account? Where do you think their business plan is? They gotta sell something. I mean, it's not just that out there on the you know how much you know how many servers historically Facebook has taken up. So what happens is because Google is utility and function and not form, and it's known as
that. If if they if they read into our words, they read endorphin accurately read into our tonality they read in the hot spots for search. If they do all those things are automatically forgiven because of providing such a useful utility. Whereas Facebook is viewed Morris, a social platform where you can look up your high school friends. So that gets that people take that as more personal than reading your Email account, then it's interesting. You bring that up because I my my heads in the same place, and I want to get Holly and on this
conversation at this point, because I'm looking at the way that I share on Facebook as opposed to the information I share in Google. And there is no functional difference between the type of data that I offer. I mean, Google has access to the same amount of information about me that Facebook has, but a more connected to face books data. I'm sharing pictures and it's like I'm sharing intimate thoughts and you know, events
with friends. It seems more perks ceilings. It's seen its like, does this direct connection with the data. And it's it's it's just fascinating to me that I have that same level of connection with Google and yet I just don't care. Well, that's a problem. It's your perception is the problem, right? And I I can't agree more with Jonathan. I'm you're going to love me by the time we're done with this call. If you keep speaking first [laughter]. You know why? No, Jennifer and always this week
for [laughter] exception of Google, taking your data, whether through Email or search engine or whatever you're doing is that the data is not talking back to, you know, one programming response back to you like that's what we were all afraid of on Facebook is, oh my God, the Russians are talking to us through Facebook. And the problem is that we're wrong about that because Google is talking back to us, by the way they prioritize. They responses to your searches. By the way, you see different information coming up to
even the way that they're now programming the I within that. The web, your your Email window, have you noticed that may start to type a G mail? Now it's it's upgraded in it says, can I anticipate what you're back to say? And it has been reading my Email for so long that it was right yesterday about 400 5 times in finishing my sentences for me. So I think it's a perception issue we perceive day g mail and bugle aren't talking back to us or or trying to manipulate as when in fact they are.
Here's my here's my question though. Ken, Google stay immune as they have so far. Is it possible Joe for Google to remain in the sweet spot of being a utility as opposed to this personal connection of a platform? Or is Google just playing on borrowed time and will eventually have to pay the piper for all the information that they're kind of mining on us in using on us? I mean, look history has taught
us that too, that every single company rises and every single company fools and fails eventually. And you could look at Facebook, for example, and and of said bolt. That's never gonna happen. Facebook, they have how many two billion or something like a billion, a lot of people that have subscribe to the platform. But at the end of the day. As quickly as that rose and everybody shade and overshadowed didn't care
about who was kind of in a manipulating they data. Something else comes along, people get bored. The reality is and I would say this to talk to your question. Facebook is, is is Google a media company? Is Facebook technology company, I think Facebook as a media company and therefore held accountable and held under the same scrutiny and pressure as any other media company, or at least that's kind of how they're monetize causing primarily. Google is not a media company.
That media products, they have added products. But at the end of the day, they are absolutely a technology company. Okay. What? What about what about you too? I mean, YouTube is not going to say that's what I was going to say. They have a portfolio of technology products. Some all media products, you'll point to just before you. I was just going to say that. But then when you look at G male when you look at Android that but so many when you look at search, have let so many dead an any such an ad product with such a utility. It's a little bit of
both. So let me let me specifically talk about the YouTube situation because YouTube had a similar brand safety issues that face book is considered as had in that are concerning brands yet, Facebooks being penalized to the tune of a 27% drop in their stock price while YouTube continues to do extremely well, a generating profitability. Even though essentially they're the same thing. They're both media platforms. They both
have brand safety issues. It seems like this can't go on forever. It seems like especially in the in this particular climb at this particular environment of social outrage, it just can't last forever cut that there are two points again. I mean, I just wanted to just continue to play to to put Google. Hit ahead with Facebook. YouTube continues to grow and to rise they and they've created these
incredible tools. And services for makers, the a studio, and and created this unbelievable ecosystem that I would say is use a Centric and come and customer Centric. I don't think Facebook is that at all. So they all fundamental strategic differences between these two companies and how they run their companies. The other thing is Google has failed so many times, and I have experimented so many time not trying to boost Google this is Facebook abashed Facebook.
Facebooks grow strategies and acquisition growth strategy. As opposed to launch, truly innovating and launching new products and and being able to fail quite gloriously at them. So they are fun. I mean a Montreal question. They are fundamental differences between these two companies. That would certainly indicate why one seems to kind of, you know sputter along or or is less immune to a lot of these fluctuations and vote and volatile changes. Whereas the
other one just seems to almost get a free pause. In my opinion more, let me let me take the converse position, not amok or disagree with you joy actually feel pretty confident that you're right here, but Holly, the converse here of the original question Ken, Facebook actually benefit from being more like Google in terms of the way that they present and deliver their content. I mean, could they take a page from the Google playbook can be more of a utility.
Oh great Austin, I think if we start thinking up connecting with other people as it basic utility in life, then yes and it's interesting because we've been having this conversation and colleagues in I- about how evaluation is your network? How valuable is what you do that you don't get? It's not monetized. You don't get it. It's a paycheck for it. You don't get you don't get to invoice someone for it, but. Your network is becoming more and more valuable in terms of either
advancing your career or into your education, advancing neighborhood qualities. So there there is definitely a value and in in that, that is where it becomes a bit of a utility in being able to connect and be able to create something that is almost automatic in the weekly operate. But here's the caveat to that. We're not quite there yet. It's it's it's more of a minority of people who look at networking as something that even though they can't put a dollar sign on, it still has heightened on
you. I would say in that direction, if they can, if they can help people connected, they can help people. Move the needle important things, whether it's career, family community politics whenever it is, they may have something there. But whatever Holly just said, she's absolutely right. I was going to follow that. I was going to follow Jonathan because it's just like I think she is right in terms of the possibilities, but is Facebook capable of making that turn well?
No. The only guy I give me two seconds here. Sure I- I- I think you know, we we played consultant to YouTube for years and they would ask us how to get people to stay longer in. And we said the you know, a better add server is not going to be your answer. Ok, it's just not so okay, so you have to watch this video and then we might give you a skip button or something you that'll make people hang around longer gaffer a millisecond. But the problem is this YouTube trained us to go in,
look for a flock of seagulls sawing space age love song. For example. Watch it and get out Facebook has trained us how to use them, and it's hard to change people's behaviors when you've already trained them on how to use your website right, or your app, or whatever you're electronic distribution. What happens is you've already trained people, soul to flip flop from from social service to utility is a long flip flop.
I find your flock of C goals reference completely crazy. I reduction actually prefer to search for Jonathan Sackett rap star and find that video. So I encourage all our listeners to go ahead and do that. But as we go in number one, selling song ahead on that album was quite simply the best. So you can look that one up [laughter]. You can still get on YouTube folks who you think he did something right. Because what I love about YouTube is the fact
that you click into one, you look for something, right? You find what you're looking or, and then. 5 10 15 more things. Just like that pop up and I can spend an entire evening and I'm I'm a little embarrassed to admit this, you know, just clicking through car through carpool carrying o'keefe's. Well, here's another one. Oh, here's another one. So what they've done is they've made it bite size chunks of victim chocolate, right? Oh, here's five minutes is big, fun in another five in another 5 and then you really fat on YouTube consumption, right? So if Facebook can
figure out how to get us. Clicking through in chunks it, instead of you know, I rightly responding to some friend of ours who posted something we disagree with or or oriented infinite scrolls so that so that the interface when it gets right down to it, I find the user experience on Facebook to be almost outdated. At this point. It's not doing enough thinking with me and I'm not going to say thinking for me because they're already trying to do that. But thinking with me, what else might, unlike next. Now,
that is the core of the problem though with Facebook is that it asks for your interaction in a meaningful and kind of personal way on a regular basis. I mean, the first thing that you get when you turn onto Facebook is you get that. The question Mark that opportunity to just write something and adds something to the conversation. And I think because of that, it's always going to be more personal than something that. The Google is offering, which is basically like you want to find
something here we got it. You want to finally we got it. You know, Bob. Because if everybody contributing on Facebook, there's absolutely no. Quality control in what way YouTube does so welcome equality control point of view in it's all based on you know, affinity groups. But if you like it and it's good and more and more people likely you like suddenly gets bumped into top and Facebook doesn't have that ability to kind of control its own quality. And it's interestingly enough, youtubes users are controlling who gets the
most views in the most shares. And that's. I think a little bit more palpable to me than what happened on Facebook, where anybody can say anything and share anything in there's no kind of filtering on whose crazy and who's not and who's got poor taste. He doesn't. And that's the weird thing. I got got kids who will watch stop on YouTube that I would never two million years watch, but their giant communities built around. They all like the same stops the same poster. And there are makers in the makers are holding themselves to a higher standard than the person just writing. I just stopped by Starbucks and
got my copy today or baseball. Where we're going to move on from talking about the Facebook Google conundrums talking about retail another favor, marketing conundrum several publications track the subject of the evolution of retail experience. Planning this past week pushed import by digital players. Retails or two retailers are looking to recreate more the digital experience in story largely using mobile devices. So Holly, I gotta ask, does this still make
sense or do in store experiences need the double down on things like, oh personal service, which is a real differentiator, your your thoughts on the move toward increasing the digital presence in store? Is it smart? Okay, so I do have a really strong opinion about this. I've been working with a couple of retailers and have large footprints, lots of brick and mortar sites, and they also have online experiences to do the same level of purchasing in
interaction lives. My observations so far is that the ones were really good at the brick and mortar experience. Great online. You're just not answered it, take that online experience into distorting doubled down on that is a mistake in my mind. I think they have to get their online experience closer to their in store experience and and I can pick up a couple of really great in store experience like you can pick a target. Is known for the in store experience. It's they're big Bank on act to
now. What if what if they're not known for an in store experience? What if they're in store experiences broken and they're having their lunch handed to them because of the fact that online retailers are taking all their money. I mean, they're basically taking all their business. How does the the brick and mortar retailer actually compete with a do they become more digital and try to compete directly head on with the Amazons of the world? Or do they say, hey, we've
got a a real problem with personal service, and we need to figure this out and actually show a different a differentiator about why you should come into our store. I love that question. I recently signed up for something called stitch fix. I'm not trying to promote them, but they do this great thing online. You have somebody who's your consultant, and it's like having somebody go to the rack and pick out closed for you after they'd interviewed you about your preferences and showing pictures of things you'd like and
don't like in your style in your size and what, what does it? It's really personalized online experience, and it's like having a real person, but it's an online in its back and forth. And I and I love those experiences because I love around them is the trend of saying we can take the same intelligent conversation where we treat you like a person who is unique and has unique shopping needs and give you that through an online digital experience. And then it shows up at your door and you have three return shipping. There's a lot of perks and benefits to it.
So yes. I think it. Retailers, even larger retailers are struggling to have a good instructs, -perienced look at some of these smaller upstarts that are having really great online digital experiences in starting to trend. There's more and more and they're starting to pop up now. Trying to figure out how you make that digital experienced translate to be in store experience, which I think the big challenge for most retailers on the brick and mortar side is going to be compensating people who can do that. We have the ability to be
more human, need, more interactive without being sorted unapproachable, or, you know, I'm getting paid an hourly salary are not going to put that much effort into its I think there's. The challenge for the retailer is going to be the cost of hiring people who can behave that intelligently and in that sort of warm personal lay. Yeah. And I think I mean, if you look at it's there's been an inherent difference between starting with an e businessmen, totality lake Zappos. Verses as he gives no, we've been I I was one of the
partners on gun, the WalMart deal. So with mart. It was funny to me because you know we did the in store network to all those screens that are in the aisles right? And for us, it was a data play because at the end of the day on a per store per I'll basis, I could tell you what we were adds. We ran w- how much conversion it did at the end of each business day. Okay. What. Those screens, you know, to our other clients like Johnson and Johnson, they would refer to those
screens as the WalMart tax because they didn't want to pay for it. Even though the data was gold, they didn't feel the execution was strong if you just simply seeing you know a suntan lotion the in a bathing suit, I'll here's here's my issue with that. I mean, it's just like I think the from a 1 point no approach to bringing the digital experience into the stores. That makes a lotta sense. But a lot of retailers are still focused on how
can we deliver the things that digital does in the store. And they're thinking along the lines of the things that annoy the consumers online there thinking things like, how can we recreate the pop up window in the store while we don't do? So we we agree of these phones that will pop up coupons in that will help the generally more cells, and they're not really thinking through what is the reason that the customer is coming into a physical location over exactly what I think
would Holly said about target was dead on because it in my opinion, target is in store experience is. Hi touch low tech. Okay. But that. But I also haven't seen that that the figured out how to use technology and the in strikes -perienced to enhance what they've already got going. Yeah, her difference between working backwards from any business, I think. I think you're right. I think you need of a balance of the 2, and I want to get Joe in on this because Joe, this is your belly work. This
is right in your your her wheel house. This whole thing about bringing innovation too legacy companies. How do you feel about this conversation so far? Is it always important to help a client to figure out how to be more digital in the in the retail environment, or the sometimes just have some basic operational problems that need to be solved before they can actually on the digital technology? So yeah, I'm I'm glad you came to me on it because it it's a
huge, huge focus and passion area of mine, and I'll say two things. One is take tak- bonds, a noble on Amazon as an example. Greats kind of, again comparison apples to apples. But when Barnes and noble tried. To be more like Amazon, for example, the nook, this is the kindle from from what I know and I stand corrected. It was a spectacular, colossal failure relative
to all the stay, the kindle, and how integrated that is into the whole ecosystem. Instead of doing that Bond's a noble needs to double down on things like the cafe and and the experiential component, which can be digital, but doesn't even have to be. I remember going to an Audi dealership in Piccadilly in in the u k the whole experience was digital the whole experience. It was unbelievable, actually an- and I enjoyed being
inside a physical bricks and mortar environment. Was surrounded by wall to wall images of the Saudi that I can figure than swept from the screen onto, you know, for a screen in front of me like an ipad onto the screen. I could see the thing driving around me. It was life size. I could hear the sounds. You know, I could kind of a spin the car and do do different things with it. It was an unbelievable experience. And just look today at one of the most incredible
hybrid case studies which is tesla going into a tesla. It's not even a dealership there cause but there is there no salespeople and it's an inherently digital experience as well. So what I would do is I would say let's emphasized the wood experience. And and certainly to your point, Bob, there so many incredible startups out there that are bringing amazing functionality with respect to display and with respect to, you know, using Microsoft surface technology even to be able
to ready draw the consumer any it is harder than ever before to get anybody to go into a mole or into a stole. But if we can offer them an experience that is so much more than than just as functional limited experience of by now by this show room, you know, kind of by online, get it delivered to you know, it's got to go beyond the simple practice of buying and selling stuff. And digital clearly compla- huge role. I have to say that you are reminding me of an article. I read
recently that as we become more and more digital in our habits, sitting in our own desperate looking at our own bone and human beings. A surprising uptick, inexperienced, based on either moments in time or interactions that even though we're becoming more digital, the way that we work in communicate people are getting more and more excited about things that are in person experiences. And I think that. That alone tells me that were Joe is thinking about this is kind of dead on the future. People are spending more and more
money on concert tickets on birthday gifts that are go and escape the room or can we go get together, yoga in part together? Can I go to a training session where I bought a membership and I can do personal training on the river with a group of people on Saturday morning and more and more what people are looking for is to interact with human beings ink ticket out of their home. Because so much of what they're doing is behind the desk behind a phone. So I think. He can bat experience,
think about how you get treated to something that is not something you can do sitting on your couch or behind your desk. But it's digital. It appeals to your need to have information in some atomic any in being able to see something new that you haven't seen before. And I think you're probably headed in the right direction. Well, last, but not least on our topic list. A recent study finds that while reward ads or highly desirable, and when I say highly desirable, I mean, really high relieves desirable to consumers.
Marketers still largely distrust them. The marketers seemed to understand what they are, but they just don't like them. They think that there are problematic and I'm going to ask you guys, and I'm going to start with Jonathan, what's wrong with these add units? And will they ever become a premium choice for advertisers? You know, I- it's it's it's a little bit of a self fulfilling prophecy, I think I I think you know, I talked earlier about the ego of ad agencies, and part of the deal is, is that I can't
remember. Once at any agency I've ever worked at where we ever even did one, you know, so there's a we we never came in and said, you know if if it if the media by his than, here's what we're going to do, we're going to have people say, you get put an offer in there for more of a direct response thing, if it had to be beautiful and and that you know my one of my partners, Mike Hughes, if you met, you know, you knew Mike from my I never met him, but I know who you're talking about. Yes. And he passed
away. So he was a he was a great, great, wonderful guy, but I'll never forget this. We were in the pitch to win all twelve, no 16 brands of Tylenol, and we ended up winning. But I was up there talking and I said, well, you've got to remember guys. If you know they're asking me about banner ads, which will ever. And I said, well, you gotta remember, no one is ever going to print out your banner ad and hang it on their mantle. It has to provide function. And Mike interrupted me in the meeting and said, I disagree. I
want people to want to print them out and hang them on the mantel and I said, this is never going to happen. I think the ego of an agency to say, hey, listen, will you please watch this video? And then we can get you an offer. It's just it's too hard to sell in because you can't sell it internally into the agency to sell it externally till the client. The client on clients customers consumers out there. Are they like it? They liked this fact that it's like if I watch these three
ads, I'm going to get some points and I'm going to be able to buy that. I don't know that I phoned eventually got yen's that you're right, but if if the average consumer lakes lemon flavored beer and my brewery doesn't wanna make lemon flavored beer because somebody's parent was killed by a lemon were never going to do it. I will. I don't I don't disagree with you. I think that the problem like it. I laughed out of that one. I was. Okay. I was just watching the there. I I just a just
yesterday had a lightning coup goals summer, she Andy and I that's what made me think of that. So there they go. I have no idea where I was going with a suit [laughter] once the again. And successfully disrupted a conversation, but but what I'm saying is is a little bit of a self fulfilling prophecy if it's working for the consumer, but but it's not working for us. The ones selling it in, we're not going to sell it is the problem with this for the agency's. If I can venture to put words in the miles of
every agency out, there is the fact that if I'm a consumer and I'm watching an endless stream of advertisements just to get points and I really watching these ads and my really consuming the meme, I really being affected by them. And you know, it seems like it's ripe for all kinds of gamesmanship. Joe. I mean, this is something that doesn't make any sense. Does. What a sin in it in the early days of digital will I I remember there was
so many of these companies that were trying to incentivize the watching of ads, which is different to what we're talking about that was watching ads and and get points at you can redeem for something else. I think what's happening now and what I'm actually quite bullish on is in a we're living in a time way. When you look at Kandy crushing you look at, you know clash of clans and temple run. I actually called a temporary comics. The whole ecosystem behind these games. That that are now
producing companies that have market caps in the hundreds of millions and even billions of dollars, and they're all based on on doughnuts and jewels, and gems, and candy. And pe- and people are spending cash. A lot of cash to be able to kind of earn these, these pieces, a currency. Now, if you watch an ad and in exchange for that edge, you get more points, a moral gems on coins. That's a viable proposition, but before we get there
and people are constantly going to be trying to figure out ways to incentivize engagement. But but there is, you know, this is kind of options though. This is almost the the the best practice. And this is a round right now, which is if you're a gaming an app developer, you're actually using your reward ads in order to to get people to download your game. So in order to to incentivize somebody to kind of get their gems old
coins. You know, the the the the the value proposition is not just to watch an ad, but taxi download and potentially even install your lap. And this is a huge, huge growth, best practice in terms of how many of these apps are getting started. So this stuff is real and it's pretty pretty valuable and its substantial in terms of how people are kind of building on its, but but it's early days right now. And so I'm pretty bullish on on where this is sizzle heading. I don't
know. It's early days though. I mean, I love everything you said, but I would say having having kids who are 9 and 11 and friends with kids, her slightly older this generation that's coming up is so attuned to this. They have so much strong Aki men around, oh yeah, I know how to get my points. I know how to get my next thing. And the number of times I've even watched yesterday. I watched a five year old. He take the phone clay game on his dad's found. State dad, dad, can I watch this ad? I want the points. And
then the dad says Yahya whenever he watches the ad Odette it's for an app. Can I get that out yet? Go ahead. He downright, is it three? Yeah, you can get it. I've watched that chain of that conversation happen, and I think that as as people who are now between the ages of 5 and 20 begin to get mature, this is the space to go. And I think to be clear, I'm referring 1000% to the you know, lag it market is and and their agencies, I'm absolutely no referring to consume
because they're all over the stuff. That's why I say this is I best practice and and and the people that a winning right now, the people that are using these ads acid that's right. Well, with that, it's time for the ad fell five but before we get to that segment of the show, I do want to take this quick opportunity to thank my guests again and allow them the each do a shameless plug starting with mister Joseph Jaffe you can find him@the innovations scout.com. That's the home where he is now a super adviser, providing
insight, 2 brands about the many, many amazing things that start ups are doing in the community. So tell us what's going on in your world, Joe, what would you like to promote? Yeah, I haven't been doing too much shameless self promotion on on the show of light, but I do want to talk about something that actually think is kind of. And could be a really nice utility for for people listening, especially those that authors. One of our clients right
now, one of my clients right now and not an innovation scowl climb, but one of my own clients is a company called conventions. And and I basically do virtual advisory boards, and they've got a unbelievable platform where in next to no time you can get a panel of real subject medics bits and have a pretty deep and functional conversation. And I actually think as a use case ad agencies and consultancy in right now, the instant
Young's in the KPMG is all over this platform. But but the plug is actually. You know, as much as it is for them, I'm actually using the platform myself. To do but of research for my new book. And it has been such an incredible experience for me in a connecting with these brilliant minds and testing a lot of hypotheses associated with the book and some central themes. You know, whether they resonate, I'm building on them coming up with case studies. And I would
say if you are a thought leader out there or an author, and you're looking to do a little bit of an innovative kind of. Focus group a bit of research, go check out, converted or contact me. I'll put you in touch with some of with with a Decima and see if we can get one of your past. You know, get a panel set up for you. But for me, it's been an incredibly exciting process. And I've had a lot of fun, and I've gained so much inside for my book. And so I would want to share that with anyone else. Who
would want to do that as well? That's that's fantastic, and thank you for telling us about it. That's an awesome. Awesome tool. Next up we have Holly, no too. You can find heard, explain dotcom that's ex- playing. Yes, just like the airplane. Tell us what's going on in your world, Holly, what would you like to promote? I want to make a shameless plug for explain in general. We are starting to really ramp up this year, and so when you need to know where your organization is going and how you'll get there, we wanted to your partner.
We combined strategic experience and expertise like a management consultancy with the creative power of a design studio or agency. And we get you there after work, different communicate, visually. See the results. Explain is excited to be your partner. Amazing things happening. It happening at explained so definitely check them out and definitely work with Holly. She's an amazing individual and last, but not least, Jonathan Sackett you can find him@all scopes dotcom that that's the
website, right? It's all scope. Yes, amongst the of mass sprint Sackett all scope, whatever. I'm pretty easy to find [laughter]. We'll tell us what's going on in your world. What would you like to promote? Jonathan. If anybody listening gets a chance. You're you're you're just Bob, Bob popping up in and out. Oh, I'm sorry, can you hear Milkin? Can hear you fine there. Go ahead. Sorry about that. I think I have a loose connection here. I would say number one
I would want to promote the show is always Bob is a good friend of mine, and I think the show is very valuable. So listen, share, do whatever you can to make sure that the word gets out about the being cast. Secondly, is my my fellow members on the show tonight, I think they're both great and smart people. So if you get a chance to do business with them, you're doing business with the right people. And 3rd, this is a pre. Pre excitement, driven thing. Jamal mash burn a one of our
partners, Evan Greenberg, and I are launching something really, really huge, and it's going to be within the next two weeks. So if you do follow me on Twitter at Jonathan Sackett it's going to be announced. This is going to be national news and we've got if you're following the news that all you might be able to reverse engineer and know what I'm talking about, but I can't talk about it yet, but this is going to be huge. So people look out for Jamaal mash burn Evan Greenberg Jonathan Sackett we get some big news common
fantastic. Yeah, definitely my eyes peeled. And as for me for more information about me or the show visit, the bean cast calm there, you can find a complete show archive can find out how to consult with me. And of course, you can find out how to advertise in the program. So check it out@the being cast.com. And don't forget transcribed me.com/being cast is your place to get transcription services and they are the official transcription partner of the being cast, forgiving being cast listeners, a special discounts, go check
that out. And if you need transcription of this show or any show that goes forward from this point on just check the website of got a posted. So remember transcribed me dotcom. And now it's time for the ad fell five or run down of the lowest moments in advertising marketing and public relations from the last week. First up during an episode of love island in the u k Durham advertised orgasm, gel saying they would help you win an orgasm.
In and of itself, Joe, this is not a really big deal. However, the nine pm time flutter Iran in was deemed inappropriate by many parents. He suddenly had to explain orgasms to their children. Well first, first of all, that's what I call the reward. Add [laughter]. Yeah, I'll take any help anyone who wants to help me when all Gaza's I'm always I'm an open guy on the chair [laughter] as far as nine o'clock is concerned, you know what if your
kids are watching t at nine o'clock, you deserve to win an orgasm. [laughter] explained to me what that is after the show. I just send know how you win widen per se. I've just excited about that. I'd like to reach out to know that they made that choice when you know you win it and then you have it. So that's game. If occasion than I would subscribe to. Next up, Nike lost their u k case and must
stop using their Lander, a London derby campaign. It's Ellen de are because they really should have checked to see whether Ellen de was someone else's trademark collie. Can at this going? This seems like an a marketing one, a one. If you're going to put something into play like a hash tag or some kind of name you figure out whether or not someone else owns the name ahead of time. Like, I mean, I actually read that and I thought to myself, why really
relate. And so I decided that I have a new rule, any time we talk about anything like that, it's branding hash tagging whenever it is. I'm just going to make the round and all the late night talk show that do hash tags and just make sure I'm not copy anything there too. And that I Dominic clear and then you know, I can have some of the paralegals check out rest. I just I can't believe they miss that. I just like I but I heard that they flip flopped after that, and they said you can win an orgasm, just do it. No [laughter].
I think they need to hire you [laughter]. Maybe. Now, the U s. department of Justice is investigating Sinclair and Tribune, television groups for price fixing, Jonathan. This one is not so much funny is just, you know, kind of slimy the way that this still goes on in in marketing, local television groups band together, and they fix prices. And then all the little retailers are advertising on the local
stations get completely screwed. Yeah, I I gotta tell ya. When I saw that I said, oh, now we're gonna go after them because we come on. We've all had a hunch. This was going on because the value and the viewership is going down and the prices are going up. I wonder how that happens. Next up the drive to find sexism in advertising has led to a Bill board in the u k advertising bathing suits being lambasted Joe for featuring a
woman, wearing guess what a bathing suit. I took a look at those. I even showed at the Whitney and I'm sitting there looking at this going. It's a bathing suit on what are you gonna do? Not show a bathing suits. You know that they should have replaced the billboard with with a photograph and then at least that way they could have said if I had a photograph of you, it's something to remind me. I wouldn't spend my life just wishing. See, again, bets that the sea, yeah. I wanted to take full
credit for the Black Sea of, but I would say now he's trying so hard to find the lyrics and look them in even work. I don't care. I'm just going to go. And you know, maybe it should have been Iran, I'm not sure. But otherwise what you do is you partner the bathing suit company with the orgasm cream with Nike, and you just say, just do it again. And now you've got a triad that we early spending a 3rd of the class. Think about it. Now I'm just trying to figure out how you're going to work in this last odd fell into this because this is
terrible and I can't even begin to think how you're gonna work this indoor, that chain of all these opportunities for humor. The agency for burger thought, it would be a good idea to post a photo pulled from an ISIS video of about to be beheaded, journalists James fully with the copy Holly. This one's grade right? When you say you want a burger and someone says, okay, let's hit McDonald's. Oh Yay, you get your head chopped off. This is like,
absolutely one of the worst things I've seen. It only lasted about an hour before the client solid and pulled the EPA. I didn't make it out the door. Okay. It's Ali. I've got the answer for this one go. I want to hear your answer. Got meat. Oh, God are totally ill ladies and just exactly I I got a better one because in the Middle East where
dealing with with countries. That all the terrorism like Iraq and also. And Iran, Iran, so far away I just ran Iran all night and day. I couldn't get away. You win, you had done, gone done is the winner, give him the prize. He gets the condoms, wrap this up now. Do it Joe. Yes, I think we've got the
feeling my feeling Bob is if people are listening at this point now, which they should be, of course, you know. This is, you know, they're probably not gonna to and again, so [laughter]. Thank you. I think. You know more did again old. I'm going to get in trouble for any of the titles I'm thinking of for the show. There's like Joe gets the condom. There's win an orgasm. All these shirt titles are going to get me in the lots of and Iran one end I run. Okay. We'll have
a second runner up would be when an orgasm [laughter]. That would get me in trouble and you would be fine with it, but will try to work with it. Bob, you to have something to add to this list or just one of discuss it. Common on used the house dog add fell five pound add fell and the number five. Will that does it for this week's show if you'd like to subscribe to this pod? Cast visitor website at the being cast are common click on the subscribe link. If you're an eye, tunes listener, we've also provided a direct link to the
idea of music store or just search for the being cast in the pod cast directory of I tunes and whichever pod gas director use when you subscribe, please leave us a review. Got a comment of a question. We'd love to hear from you to send your emails to being cast. A G m. L dotcom opening thing was performed by Joseph Cambell closing theme by sea jacks. Thanks for listening. I'm Bob, nor would be back again next week. Hope you'll join us then.