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For Monday September tenth 2018 it's time for this week's edition of the being cast, a weekly discussion about the news and issues. Facing marketers today? I'm your host Bob north. Thanks for joining us mighty so many brands even wildly successful. Brands lose momentum over time
markets evolve. Of course and brands. Miss work to stay relevant in the midst of changing moods. But are there even greater forces at work tonight? We'll discuss also why small markets are capturing more A-List talent, the continuing dilemma over sag after contracts harnessing millennial fomo plus this week's at fell 5. That's the lineup. Let's meet tonight's panel.
Thanks for joining us for this week's been cast. I'm Bob north. And with me on the panel for this evening. We start with the president at Arcadia MediaLab, author speaker, Mr Jonathan Salem Baskin is here Jonathan. Hey, Bob, great to be back on the show. Always glad to have you on the program. And now also joining us once again, we have the CEO and chairman of streamlined media. Mr. Darren Wesley Martin junior is here. Hi darren.
Hey, Bob, good to be back on the show. Thanks for having me on my pleasure. And finally, we have the recently installed editor in chief of the Clios and their online magazine used by Cleo, Mr. Tim nut joins us. Hi, tim. Hey, bob. Thanks for having me back on glad that you can make it especially given your many many responsibilities northeast, Tacoma speech up. So I'm happy to be here on a Sunday evening well pleased to have you
on the program, and let's jump right into the topics. I up there was an interesting thought p stone media post over a break that looked at why so many brands get less effective over time. Now, the article makes a lot of break points. But most notably for me was that strong brands don't rely on what they are today. But rather push for what they will be tomorrow. Now, Jonathan is this universally true because everybody, I know always relies on
brand heritage in the history of our brand. And it seems like brand heritage could get a lot of brands in trouble. If they rely on it too heavily. What's your thoughts on this? Know, it it's it's funny to be able to riff on this spot considering as you know, I'm the guy who wrote the book branding only works on cattle [laughter]. Strong opinion about this. So I think it's it's interesting because both qualities matter, right. I mean brands exist to
be reliable identifiers of everything from quality to performance and everything in between and value. But this idea that they also have to anticipate and promise a future benefit, even if that benefit isn't 100 percent clear, I think is absolutely true. These days. I think there's a there's a shift toward interesting novelty and a desire for innovation and change, even sometimes just for the sake of innovation and change. So it's. I think the challenge for
brands is not so much to be just forward-looking. But really the bridge that idea of why are we the ones looking forward, and why should be the ones for you? It was interesting that that story that you quote, a had a head of the the guy who wrote it was coding jobs talking about Ford. Henry Ford saying if we ask customers what they wanted. They would've told me a faster horse. I worked with Steve Jobs on the I MAC launch an. It was interesting. We talked so much during
those days granted, they were back in the ancient 19 nineties, but we talked so much about not knowing exactly what people would do with this device this machine that we're building look like a giant, you know, chance Lucent teardrop. And a real motivating factor for us was not so much that you could rely on it to do XYZ. But you could rely on apple giving you the chance to do something new because that's what we were about. And and to my point about bridging. Why us and why the
brand is about that past heritage? But the challenge is how do you deliver that as to the credibility for what you're proposing for the future and not knowing and and just a quick ad just like the ipad to jump ahead and a apple history. I don't know that so much giving people stuff they don't know they wanted. I think it's giving people stuff. That enables them to discover needs of themselves, and and then new needs. Yeah. Those airplane pilots weren't
sitting around complaining that clipboards and pen and paper were ineffective for keeping track of maintenance checklists. It's just when they are presented with an ipad it revolutionized how they thought about it. So it wasn't so much need. They had it was a new opportunity, and that's the whole point of elevated subtle kind of riffing. No, you're doing a great job. And you've set it up really, really. Well for me when I listened to you talk. I'm less thinking that this is about trying
to evolve what the brand means to reflect what the customer needs and more about the most companies or or too caught up in that in terms of their brand instead of trying to think through what the brand means at a higher level because apple like, you say is very much focused on. Innovation on being ahead of the curve something I mean, it's built into their DNA about who they are that they're going to surprise us. I mean, they may
not always done a good job of it. But they they're working toward that Amazon. It's more about this idea of, you know, everything that you can imagine being available to you immediately. I b m you know, it's just like the the they've evolved so many times, but they still remain this. This thought leader on the computer generation on the business world, you know, they they basically make business easier. You're never going to get fired framing and die IBM. It's still
applies. Even today. And I wonder if part of the problem guys is that. You know brands think too small when they ran their company or brand their product. And I'm not really thinking through how this brand survives over time. And how it evolves into new markets is that part of the issue at play. I mean just quickly at ending Geisen jump in. But I absolutely. And let's bring it down to earth and talk about toothpaste. So, you
know, you have a brand management system. It says the the opportunity for toothpaste differentiation is to create 45 different versions of toothpaste at you. And I leave all the names of the products out. But I I think just your point Bob that idea of the brand folks thinking about how to sort of slice and dice present state. Instead of looking at how to innovate future state because you could argue that the toothpaste brand. Shouldn't just be figuring out how
to highlight its whitening capability or or prowess to reduce cavities. But in fact, innovate and changed the way we think about toothpaste or brushing our teeth. And we don't get that innovation and the consumer product space. We get the brand differentiation. I think just what the article authored articles author was talking about which was how do you just sort of divvy up that extent, consumer desire, and and try to get that that extra dollar versus thinking about how do we fundamentally changed this MS?
Will you always default to talking about technology brands when we talk about innovation? But I want I was writing for Forbes I wrote about dove and those folks think of themselves as innovative as a technology. Company. And I it's possible. So I I think this guy's right? But it's not about the brand folks. Slicing and dicing it it's about the business innovating products. And the marketers thinking about novel ways to communicate that am ya know that always goes that always goes back to my ongoing complaint about branding. I think
the black branding belongs to the entire C suite. It doesn't belong to the marketing folks marketing folks are responsible and tasked with communicating the brand, but they shouldn't be responsible for creating the brand. You know, the the brand itself belongs to the entire organization because every touch point is important. Tim you over unique perspective in that you worked at age. And you've monitor the way the brands can K A. I've a [laughter] I always so happy that you weren't at ad week anymore because I wasn't gonna
make that mistake anymore in here. I go right in the first minute saying the wrong thing. But yeah, you have this unique perspective being on the outside monitoring brands for the I think you were the editor of ad freak for a while. Doing a lot of different exposes and thought pieces on the way that people branded. And now, you're dealing with the best and creative IQ, Cleo. So what's your take on this? I mean, it our brands not thinking deep enough about what they mean over time.
I think many of them don't I think that's true. I you know, I hate to plug right away here. But Ernie Schenck wrote a book wrote a piece for me from us recently about how marketers should think about what they want to be in a 0 years. You know? And and if you think about a 0 years that he now you you there's no way you're thinking about how you know the specifics of innovating or where you're gonna tactically improve. Yeah. You really have to think big about your brand. And you know, my example on this topic is actually from here in Portland. Maine.
I'm in I moved up here to Portland in 2008 and there was really. Very very few beers brewers here. There was 1 called Gary's among called shipyard, and they were pretty much it, and they had the majority of the market very few challengers. But Gary's and Gary's zone, absolutely fantastic beer, but they didn't they didn't change at all. They didn't innovate at all that and very quickly. They were overtaken, and you know, 10 years later, this brand that was the central brand in this market is very
very secondary Orleans swarming with microbreweries the energy is is in all these new brands, and I think it's a perfect example of of a brand that didn't really I just thought that its own quality would would live on forever. And I very rarely does that happen. And you look at you look at the best marketers today. And they're always. They're always thinking year to head. You know, we're we're talking before we came on about my Nike, and you know, this. This Colin Kaepernick stuff you as almost
certainly been in the works for a year or more. I mean, this is a company that's been innovating. What just do? It means for 30 years. And it's a perfect example of of how to think big and and how to iterate differently around that big idea. Darren I want to talk more about management an understanding how people manage their brands because obviously people were not brand managers are not effectively managing this problem. In many many cases, you know, just because brands get
tired over time doesn't mean that they can't evolving, they can't become something more relevant to the market place that they exist in today and water brand managers not doing enough of in order to intimidate this need and move the brand forward, even before it becomes a problem or brand starts diminishing. You know, Bob, I think that that's a great question. But. I had actually also add to that question if they are being in power by the C, suite, you know, you mentioned that before rain
our new they have the budgets, do they have the capacity to think on that macro level when they have you know, goals to be met each quarter or each year. I'm in everything is such a year by year basis. So when we think of business, we of course, you wanna think 3 to 5 years out. But the reality is there's a lot of things that are happening that have affected in the past and present that have the ran investors the brand managers the C suite just heads down. Right. So if the brand
managers don't have that space in which they are able to think outside the box and think long term and have their ideas invested in. And they could be thinking about it. I'm very sure they are thinking about it. But if they're not supported then didn't it's just thought right us, no action. And I think that's what's happening. With a lot of larger brands is that day. Many of the managers are not moving faster than some of the a brand ambassadors or brand managers or some of the junior level a talent
who wants to see a larger shift and so because they're moving so slow you're not seeing a large innovate. Shin or a tactics that pushed them forward? Right. It's the same thing that makes them money year over year in really it's safe wet safe. What makes money is what they're going to continue to go after writers the ideal. Why only 10 percent of the budget or is put into experimentation, right? That entire thought process has to shift in order for their talent. And their company to
transform his talks. I mean, you you all that makes sense and all that is a real Mixim relevant points here. But we're not just addresses. The the marketing problem itself. I mean, not just deals with the situation with the communication part of the puzzle. Wonder brands need to do in order to infuse this presence infuse this this brand into the very DNA into their culture. So that they can evolve right from the point where a product is being
developed to the point words being communicated. I mean throughout the whole process. Yes, I think that goes back to the C suite. And it goes back to the executives who have to create culture and create a consensus around the product that they're actually selling m build some type of connection and engagement with its employees. So that they are connected to being innovative that they feel like they can open up in have different ideas around a product that is either older new. So it is definitely still in the
warehouse of the CEO. The chief talent officer the CMO to create a culture that speaks to their a level in their values and their mission, and it's continuously reinforced to a level that people feel as if this is why I, you know, I'm working here to talk about apple when John immoral. Added up people. I'm very sure felt empowered to be innovative built empowered to think about things. That the consumer did it. No, they want it. Right. And because of that
great products were created. So it definitely still is in the warehouse of the CEO of the chief talent officers of the CMO to fix that problem internally in if I could add 'em during I I think you're right. I it, but I I also think that it is sort of a doctor heal thyself type problem as well in that. I think this idea that we as marketers or the folks who are are holding the brand even more specifically are somehow separate from
the rest of the business or have this insight that the rest of the business doesn't have to Bob's point earlier about it being about the operations and about every touch point. I think the problem and again to back this article that talked about brands losing value. It's all about. The creations of marketers. It's all about the brand is this artificial construct that marketers have invented through the creative imagination. And I think the Tim's point about, you know, for marketers to think about who they are going to be in a 0 years.
I think they are going to be out of a job. Because I I think in a way we're sort of like we function like the court alchemists in the seventeenth century were busy being responsible for and using our tools to create things that arguably are so much bigger and deeper and more nuanced and more meaningful than we could ever hope to imagine. And again, I love the Nike ad. I love I I I've spent my life doing and talking about marketing and branding. But I really think the the other part of
in. In addition to the empowering you try about Darren which again is spot on. I think is this idea of us reinvent reimagining what our role is. And it's not simply to we don't own the brand. We don't create it. The the this idea that we're gonna go make it through our creative imagination is nonsense. Was there's not very very weak. There is no brand. And I think the challenge for us is to go back into the organization. And instead of telling the organization what it should be. Do a
much better job of reflecting back to the internal audience. And external stakeholders who and what it is. Well, you know what? What I'm thinking about? This situation. And what you're what you're describing to me here, Jonathan I I really think that marketers are not gonna go away because I think marketers need to evolve into something more than what they are. And I this goes back to marketing 1, oh 1. I mean, if you take a marketing management 1, oh 1
class, you know, very basic class on how to market. And how to deal with your product and how to bring it to market and how to deal with the communication parts of the puzzle. You know, when you boil it all down, it's a value exchange. That's what marketing is it's a value exchange in value can be created in anywhere from the product sourcing to the product development to the the customer service. I mean marketing is the entire process from conceptualization on
forward. So why why why so focused on marketing being so concentrated on the message and the experience as opposed to the entire process from the point where we think up something to the point where we sell it. Well, I I think that you're you're you're you're you're proving your green of my point Bob, which is ready marketings Sergio Zemin uses a marketing student Porton to be left to the marketers. Right. It ultimately is embedded
in everything. Everybody does in the organization, so long term this idea of the value that we as marketers create right now is still this funny. Desert of interstitial moment of technology, and culture, we still hold some of the of the connector between the company and the world, but that's going away. Once we don't control that. I I I'm not trying to be dour about it. But I can't help it think that marketing and branding as a concept. Kinda goes the way of you
know, above insurance agents and travel agents. We don't need the broker what people think what we do need to do is die back in the organization and get everybody empowered to be and communicate what the company aspires and wants to be in back to the point about this article. It is about bringing new things to the market not just simply telling the market. Here's what you ask for. I I think it's 1 away. I think, you know, marketing dies in
100 years to dig into Tim's timeframe, but long live marketing. Well, good points towards all. And and since you brought up Tim, Tim. I wanna talk a little bit shift this conversation and talk a little bit more about the possibilities of change, and whether or not they're even realistic because it seems to me the process of brand of illusion is speeding up as consumer attention becomes more fragmented and were being faced with an a an increasingly shorter
cycle of brand relevance that needs the then evolved to meet the shifting consumer attention span is the problem gonna continue to get worse. And if so is it even possible for brands to live for a long time or they'd so disposable that. They need to evolve to a peak and then just die in new brands replace them. Well, I think sir, I sent certain brands are are too big to fail. Probably you know at this point. I think that
that if you have a headstart, and you've got all this consumer attention. You've got you know, you've got the. You know, you've just got your your presence. That's been built up over many years. I think the betting process the smart marketers big begin. You know, they try to move at the speed that the culture is moving, and and they try to get ahead of that curve to you know, he talked to some of the best CMO's out there. And they're thinking creatively about how to move as fast as they can in general. And you know, I think
what you see tactically from a lot of brands is just trying to jump on trends because they think that that is moving at the speed of culture. And I think, you know, particularly the the brands that jump on advertising, trends know, I think the the once they've. You know, once you jump on a trend, you know, you've sort of lost the pot, and I think. I was a Cleo. Judging few weeks back as targeted Fernando Mashad about this. The the Burger King salmon there. He's a guy who I'm always pretty impressed with who you know. He he's,
you know, the stuff that they create as very, trendy and trends, all time and social. But it's not, you know, they they create the trend usually. And I think you know, that speed is very difficult for any brand to get to get to. And they have a very fascinating model over at Burger King. That is I mean, literally, it's friend though, he has a a a WhatsApp group with all of his agencies around the world. And and. Like 1 person from each agency and they're constantly chatting on his lap. And and, you know, the very
format of their conversation is sort of futuristic, and and you know, that's the way they share ideas. And and they have all these wonderful creatives that ain't now that that are contributing the craziest ideas, they can come up with to this thing. And they end up with this. You know, this dynamic process that moves very very quickly. And I think the brands the tap into that are going to be the ones that that. Can I think affect the culture and and reflect, you know, an even steer the culture and
give people these experiences that they didn't know they wanted even as technology begins to, you know, overtake our lives. And I think it's going to be very difficult for for a lot of brands do that. But I think I think you're seeing more and more brands that are starting to understand that. And I think that the, you know, the younger folks that are working on these on these brands at a better creative level are are bringing their experiences as digital natives into this ecosystem, and it's not really that unusual for them to to move that quickly. I UN I do think that
when they apply their, you know, their expertise to the on the brand level that they they could continue to to build these things up, and I don't think they're gonna collapse under their own weight necessarily. I think it's about speed. Well, I think this is a fascinating sobs subject, but we need to move on. And we're going to talk next about Adlan migrating away from big cities. There's a seems to be a trend going on were more more A-List talent are starting to explore opportunities in smaller markets. We'll discuss to see whether that's
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in.com/being cast get your 0 dollar ad credit. And we thank you very much for their support of our program. Well, advertising agencies use to be things that lived in breathe mostly in big cities. Now, of course, there were always the off outliers like Martin in Richmond and Wieden Kennedy in Portland, but the bigger cities always attracted the best talent and therefore delivered most of the good work. But now that talent
took that talent pool is migrating to cities like Austin in Omaha and Kansas City giving rise to bigger accounts heading to smaller markets Teheran. What is behind this shift? If it really is happening, and is it beneficial or problematic for the business world. What's your thoughts on this? Yeah. Thanks for that question. Actually, it's so funny. Because 1 of a our clients are hopeful clap. At Ted bold their station in Kansas City, and they
were actually talking about how I'm they're trying to get more talent to go into the smaller cities. I think the reason for on a business perspective, you know, if you have a lower budgets, or if you're you are getting larger accounts, and you want to save money and get more profit going to smaller cities make sense, right? The tax deductions of you the money that you can save or retain on at on the business level is a great incentive. Then of course, the large ran in all of the
taxes in New York or the larger cities from a talent perspective, though, just makes sense. I'm from South Carolina, Columbia, South Carolina. I've moved up to New York because of course, I thought it was the mecca marketing advertising, and it is but. You know, when I went home as my agency is digital. I went home for a few weeks. I just felt calmer. Right. It's the idea that smaller cities allow you to have a true work life balance. They allow you to actually maybe have shorter commute
spend less money on expenses. So you can save money you can buy or purchase property. And I think from our talent perspective as very intriguing I think at in New York, the the city itself can get a. Very large and can encompass someone it creates a sense of angst itself. Right. It being New York this big giant or any larger city. And so for talent set, especially creatives smaller cities allow you to breathe it
allows you to continue to do the. Great work that you wanna do now on the larger accounts that you are interested in because these agencies are embracing smaller cities. So I I think it's definitely beneficial were thinking about work life balance rethinking about getting the best story in the best creative work. I think for of course, the larger cities it begs the question, how can they reinvent themselves to become or continue to be a mecca of of storytelling or creativity or culture
that drives people's interest and staying in the city, and sacrificing some things that they don't get on a smaller cities. You these are all good points in the the definitely reflect a lotta my own thoughts about the smaller markets. I mean, this more markets offer a lot more advantages to a talent who's looking for a better work life balance. But at the same time, I think this is going to face this situation is going to face the same problem that a lot of awards
shows face. And I think that's a nice segue over to Tim because you know, 1 of the things about a word shows that I discovered being a a word showed board for a number of years is that we were always losing out to can because can was in the south of France. You know, it was a destination. It was there was a reason kind of shining pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Like, you might go to the south of France for a week and party up with the.
With the the elite who go there. So there was there's a certain cachet with the destination location. I think that's true with advertising as well. You know, if if you're not going to the big cities. For your account, your somehow, maybe not getting the most bang for your buck. You might not be getting the most Huckabee say this politely the most. A
wonderful business trip on magical as opposed to a little trip off the Kansas City. You're going to New York and you catch a Broadway show. There's. There's so much going on in the big city approach to advertising. I can't see why. This is going to be a real challenge to the dominance of the major markets. Saw. How about you, Tim? What do you think? Well, I don't know if I should answer the can questioning the Kenny can be in the south of France is a good reason to go to an award show. That's in New York. But.
No. I mean, listen talent. If you're 20 years old, and you're graduating from college. Of course, you're gonna wanna go to New York or LA or San Francisco, and you know, I mean, I did that at 22 and I did it. I was in New York for 14 years, but. And I do think there's a shift happening. And I do think that people the younger folks do want that quality of life probably sooner than than we used to. And I and I do think, you know, Portland. I keep bringing a Portland, but you know, it's it's the example. That's
that's in front of me every day. I mean, my jobs have always been tethered to New York. I would add week now with Cleo. The you know, if you look at the talent coming to Portland, they are coming here younger some of them are not even are not leaving to go to mecca here, and they want to stay because there's a a more thriving scene here. I moved to Portland 10 years ago, and the you know is very little going on. Then now, it's the creative culture has really taken root here. I mean, there's wonderful restaurant scene and the other smaller markets. I think many of them have more to offer young
people now and young people. You know, they they they're more willing to, you know, they're they're more interested in having the balance, and they're less interested. I think maybe they'll go to the city for the big city for a while. But I think. Once they've gotten some experience under their belt. They're the other wanna go to a a city that has more to offer that where you don't have to. You know, there's a lot more reasonable rants, and they can they can get married and not have to worry about, you know, trying to make it work in in the city, which is just you know, who need looks
ridiculous. You know, a good example here in Portland is the agency via you know, they they're agent. See the, you know, the highest profile agency in Portland they've had national clients over the years. But I think they're just reaching a new tier now, you know, they they recently won the ELO bean account, which is obviously being main base. They were they were craving that account for 25 years. And they've now they've had it, you know, they've gotten and now. And you know, you just can you can sense, the the, you know, the the you don't have to go to Boston, Yvonne, or you
don't have to go to New York. If you're if you're in Portland, and and I think many of the smaller cities around the country are feeling that. And and I think it is beneficial, and I think as the country grows as population grows, the the second the so-called second tier markets are gonna be become more top tier? And instead of it being, you know, a few cities that do good advertising in the here. And I have dozens doing doing good work Jonathan do you? Concur with all this your big city guy as well or tier? I mean, it's just like you're based in Chicago [laughter]. Yeah. No. And
I it was John Gillanders, quote, why do you rob banks because that's where the money is [laughter]. Yeah. I did the same things Tim Adair. And did I mean, I I after college by the way in Waterville, Maine. Thank you very much. And I I I I went to New York for 8 years because that's where the jobs were in. That's where the the the energy was. But I would I sh-. I'd look at this question answered differently instead of looking at quality of life. I would offer for the creator. I look at the experience of life of the consumer.
Because the days when New York and L LA to a lesser extent in London for that matter could dictate advertising and branding strategy for big brands were the days of mass media and command control communication, so arguably it was reasonable to believe that your average consumer in Kansas City or Austin are all these secondary markets that are now getting hip and fun had to kind of follow were willing to follow the lead the creative concedes created by
people in New York or Chicago because that's how media worked. But now, I'm not so certain that that 20 something creative living in New York has really much of anything in common with his or her counterpart living in Austin or Kansas or Des Moines or anywhere else. They don't those those consumers don't have to obey the dictates of the life sound the experience of that city that urban dweller I think to the innovation front again to the
first conversation on the technology side. You know, that's why the your your smartphone options are are full of things for making city life easier. Right. You can order cupcakes and cabs and hotel rooms and clothing and whatever else and the reality is is that to the vast majority of Americans it's irrelevant. Because the designers of those tools leave in a certain environment that has no relationship to the environment the rest of the country or the world lives. And so I would suggest that that
shift is not only about quality of life. And by the way, I run a 30 personnel agency, and it's completely virtual. So I got bodies all over the world. And in fact, I don't even know where most of them are most of the time, and it doesn't matter because 1 I want staff in enmeshed immersed in the lives of the customers were talking to. And Secondly, you know, what that trip to New York to go to the Broadway show with a client is a flight away. It's at D H. It's an overnight trip for me from Chicago. It
really doesn't matter. I don't have to live there to lay on the schmooze. So I would argue that the shift is bigger than just quality of life. But also has to do with the changing nature of how and brand creators need to relate to their consumers. And in that sense, the shift a secondary tertiary markets is probably a good thing. But do you think the brands are smart enough to get that reality as opposed to just focusing on the fact that I'm a big brand spending 4000000000 dollars a year in media, or whatever
my budget happens to be and I can get everything I need in 1 place. I can meet with my 3 agencies because my 3 agencies are all in the New York metro area in 1 trip. I don't have to scatter. My my services to the winds from a standpoint of just pure efficiency and managing your brand and your agencies. Doesn't make sense to focus on as if you're a big brand on focusing a big shop. In a
big market. It doesn't make any sense now. And I think because. I think it a are Darren as you also you also see giveaway that idea what we were talking about a. Being innovative right and being innovative within different regions. And what we push apple culture as a lot of times as being within your being contextually understanding of the markets and your audiences and if you had. Buried audiences.
It's great to have different agencies in different places and agency in Atlanta being able to get up to connect to people in South Carolina, North Carolina, and you know, Florida would possibly do better than someone in New York. Just thinking, oh, this is what people in Georgia do or this. What people in Florida do? Right. You have that context. You have an understanding that nuances understood to do better advertising, Antic impale or compel more people to buy your product. But at the same
time, it it. It's also from a larger brand perspective a big shift, right? Which is why the industry is now talking about it. And I'm very sure that brands are going to start to listen, but it may take a longer time to do it. I think the smart brand the innovative ran as we've been talking about we get on that right now and start to see how they can operate in control it in a way that it's beneficial to its consumers into its product. Well, another way that
a lot of agencies are having to deal with the changing reality of today's world is the fact that the union talent that they work with is becoming increasingly upset with the ways that the agencies are dealing with the union contracts agency, b h has become the latest shop to break ties with sag after ah, which is the big acting talent union for all films and television, Tim this situation stems in large part from the never
adequately address situation over royalties for digital usage. I mean, basically, the union contracts still stipulates that royalties must be paid for every usage and that makes the ad potentially so expensive that it can actually be executed in market. So is the industry being unfair to acting talent? Or as the union, just not recognizing a current problem or core problem with their current contracts. What's your take on that?
Yeah. So I mean, it's a it's a labor question pretty serious 1 and a pretty complicated 1. But you know at the core, I think you can. But of course, you couldn't figure it out for us. Where were were absolutely 100 percent behind you were all willing to take whatever your leaders and follow it forever. So you just go ahead and tell us I solve this. Excellent praising him as long as sag doesn't get too upset with me for saying the following. Now. I think you know, I think you can understand the
motivation for both sides here. Unite the union wants to protect his members and and keep their wages and working conditions. Hi, the agencies are increasingly need need to rein in the Prussian costs. And they're under great stress from from the clients to to up their cut their budgets to do more with less. And I think, you know, a lot of a big part of that not speaking specifically about any agency is is to have the flexibility to work with non union talent on some jobs. You know? And as you say, you know, now that there's more and
more digital channels in. There's more more content. That's needed to fill those channels, and you have to produce at a lower budgets. So yeah, I mean it keeps coming up. And so you've got agencies like BPH wanting to get out of the deal with sag yet agencies. That were started in the last 5 10 15 years that were never, you know, never signed the contract in the first place and agency like droga 5 comes to mind. They were actually the target of a of an attack campaign by sag couple of years ago.
That was really effective. Right. It. I mean that was not effective at all the Jonathan. I wasn't very effective for as Drago. I think drug a was acting faithfully whenever they were hiring talent. You know, and and sag has tried to deal with its own with the inadequacies of its own contract as well. You know, they they they created a couple of waivers 1 called the low budget digital waiver which allows union talent to work on. You know, some productions that are
that are made just for digital or social media. You know, even if the wages in some cases, don't stack up to a specified in the in the main side contract. So yeah, I mean, I think you've got 2 sides that it just have these competing, but but somewhat valid reasons for doing this. I think the hard part for us is to know, you know, where the actual abuses might be happening in a man b b h if you read their statement on this, it's very very broad. If you listened to sag, you know, sags got up, you know, a
very aggressive. They use a lot of shaming language to talk about the agencies that they that they start fights with or have fights with. So I don't know. I mean, I think at 1 thing I will say is I think the ad industry. Does have a history of of treating acting talent particularly non-celebrities acting talent is kinda marginal to the creative process. You know, if you if you hire a celebrity, that's 1 thing that's great like that. That contract is hammered out separately in and obviously have no, no worry the celebrities. Luckily paid
properly, but for for non celebrity actors, you know, they're they're very rarely recognized me. I don't know I've had a published so many I've published thousands of stories about creative campaigns and almost never maybe 1 time out of a 0. They actually even this list. The acting talent. So I mean, this doesn't necessarily mean that they're treating them poorly or or illegally. But I think it does maybe suggest that actors aren't, you know, at the top of the list of priorities among agencies up as they are under enormous tremendous financial pressure to
deliver a video work for clients. So I think it's difficult. I think both sides have have appoint an amateur how plays out honestly. Darren any thoughts on this. I mean, do you see a way out for the agencies that is advantageous for both the agency and the union to get satisfaction out of a contractor is. There's just no way to bridge this gap because of the intractability over the issues that large.
I think there's always a solution that can can happen. But I given the factors. There's just a lot of our conversations that need to. To be had right and possibly possibly not. 4. Yeah. I I'm I'm really I don't know that you know, it's fair enough. Because the problem this problem is I'm really complicated. I mean, it's the so again, it's it's not an
easy problem. But I mean from a standpoint of. Whether or not the talent deserves to be recognized. Whether the talent deserves to have a royalty. Whether or not the talent deserves never royalty at the level that they've been expecting all these issues are have been on the table for the to tell me Jonathan. I mean, it's gonna have been for the past 20 years now since the dawn of the internet age, we've been dealing with this issue. Right. I mean,
why is it that it's so hard to figure out what the talent you basically where the give and take is. And is is is the is the stalemate, boo. Boy is the problem belongs in belonging to the agencies to the to the to the Taliban in the unions. Or is it firmly on the clients who squeezing every dollar out of every ad campaign and not really wanting to pay for everything that it costs to make.
Yeah. So I I I think the answer is. Yes. And yes. I'm glad you got a question out of Africa's. I barely managed the form that I mean, I I agree. Darren I mean, I don't think there's an attempt to them it. I mean, there's I don't think it's a very complicated issue. But I want to a 2 points 1 on a technical level free. It's a it's a much bigger problem than the ad industry and talent, right? It's this idea of not only rights and copyright on the internet, but actually labor rights
and wage wage activism, and this is a this is a. A battle that has been going ebbing and flowing for not just the past 20 years, but for you know, ever since the industrial revolution. Right. So on 1 level corporate procurement, the folks who owned the capital not to speak like a total communist year, but they're going to cut whoever's gonna let themselves get cut. So there is no, righteousness. It's not right. It's not wrong. It just is and at a technical level. There is an
argument to be made that hats off to the union for defending and asserting its rights for as long as it possibly can. Because there is no good reason why they should give it up in lieu of other another class being cut. I mean, it's all at some level reasonably arbitrary the second issue though. Isn't it the second level isn't so arbitrary in? That is. And this is really building on Tim might west Tim was talking earlier on my head was gonna blown up here. 'cause I really I really started thinking about brands differently.
Really I mean, fundamentally, and it's really a I don't want to buy a belittle at AME. Really a big a high that is if branded communication is really about entertainment and about what's latest and greatest and what's real time. And what engages consumers arguably, we have a vision, a paradigm shift of marketing and branding as being not so much about selling a product or service, but really just purely engagement and entertainment and propagating content into the cosmos, and as
such we've a transition going on here from agencies being sellers of product and services to really publishing or movie production studios, creating entertaining engaging content that gets customers teed up so that they can be sold to. So if if that vision is correct that trip paradigm shift is accurate. Then what's underlying? This argument is a is a lack of vision about the role that talent plays in
this equation ripe. Because no longer are you simply a prop and a sales message. That actor or you know, that actor actress is is actually talent in a piece of entertainment, contact note content of different from a movie or a TV show or a song. And as such a different set of rules should apply. It's in a United Europe piece. Yeah. That's really interesting. I think I think though, you have to remember that these are
Congress's commercial acting, and it's th everything the bed the weight of that, you know, all the the way people think about that plays into this as well. Right. There's even actors themselves say, and now, it's just it was just a commercial that I was in verses a show or movie, I think, they they are, you know, commercial acting talent is treated sort of like second class talent often. And I think that is a shame. And I, and I do think that your point is is is great that that when you know as an
advertising. And marketing shifts to become way, more. Similar to to entertainment than than the acting. Probably it will fall to the actors to make it believable. What does the Saint because the same thing happen item? Me the entertainer up at the same thing. Happened to authors. You know, like William Thackery writing Vanity Fair got paid crap. For the episode installments of at what became novel right because people thought about it differently. It was just a different work product. It was a different output creative output, which was
just worth less. He just didn't deserve to get paid as much as you know, Charles Dickens was getting paid for writing on. I guess he did it episodically too. But whatever I'm getting my history screwed up. But whatever happened later novelists got paid in a different scheme. And I I just I think that. Both the agencies and the Taliban. Kinda need a reset about what the debate what the conversations really about. What is it about? Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, and they they need to stop thinking about this as
being a commercial talent contract and the need to start thinking about the ongoing value creating digital content and how that plays into their. Their own careers. I mean, there's opportunity here that didn't exist prior to the current market that exists right now. And it's this like they these age in these the unions need to go back to the bargaining table. With a whole different set of priorities. And they need to realize that. Yes,
this cheap digital content is not worth our time or effort or are ongoing concern about our members, we need to be focused on this much richer contract role negotiation with the people about these. These these content opportunities that you're describing Jonathan. In Darren when I saw somebody you yet what I'd add. I actually it just it just comes to my mind about the influencers. A particularly diverse influencers
online who are also producing the con- 10 right. They're thinking about the content that create either creating it for the agencies, and then they're just giving it up for and this isn't go f- or sagged, but they're giving it up for less than a 0 dollar sometimes they're now just getting their value. And so the idea I think it. Any representation is yo- cuts brand start to invest more into digital an end in media companies start to push more content. How are the
influencers going to be paying 8 it not only for the work that they do on camera? But behind the camera as well to make their agencies. Look good for the brands that they're they're working for right? We've seen it with some of the media companies that we work with and they create content and many times, it's undervalued. It's rushed and you know. It's not sometimes no credit. And I think that that would speak to a lot larger portion of how
we. Go into contractual agreements in in what representation means in in changing that theory where we need to move on to our final topic real quickly running out of time. Finally, we've known for some time that fear of missing out was a powerful driver in advertising as we call it fomo in the marketplace. But new research seems to suggest that millennials are much much more susceptible to such tactics than the rest of the market. So Jonathan how can
we best leverage? This fact, and what are the limits to this? I mean, obviously, I can see an opportunity to create fomo with this particular market. But where do we draw the line on that [laughter]? Yeah. I it. That's a really good 1. Right. Because it is somewhat of a it shouldn't be, but it is somewhat of a thin line between motivation and passion and exploitation, right because not everything. Arguably is the latest greatest must have.
And I wonder at some point if. There's a gen others a chronological evolution here in that millennial. Consumer and I have absolutely no data to back this up. But my gut tells me. Why don't you hate it? Like when you have to make a point like back Israelis, everybody just decides your talk crap. But Mike tells me that these millennials are gonna keep growing up. And at some point they're going to become
less susceptible. And if the end for that matter, actually, reactionary and negative about being pushed for that next latest greatest thing and being left out. So I think the the dividing line is 1 of those squishy value based. Principles that you just hope that agencies and their clients will define and define properly in that is you know, what's how do we
feel about the difference between what's what's good to have versus? What's must have? Because if everything's in emerged. It's like it's like that scroll on CNN, right? That's like special report special announcement. It happens all the time. So what happens is that it loses all of its meaning. And I think it's so it's a dangerous. Thing to pursue in unless we unless brands can just somehow figure out how to. I guess bottom line is that rather than answer. Well, I mean, you've made a lot of good points for not having
an answer so kudos to you. But no, 1 of the things that struck me about this article that I was reading was that this is less about millennials and more about digital adoption, and and the kinds of platforms that we adopt. I'm we're talking about a millennial audience. We're talking about heavy social media usage in this particular. Marketplace. And you know, when you go younger, you find much more messaging platform uses you go higher. You find
messaging platform in Email usage. But in this 1 section of the marketplace, you find a really heavy adoption of social media. And I'm wondering book is this more about platform usage in the ability to see what your neighbors are doing. And being able to play that keeping up with the Joneses game constantly. Because I I the reason I I make that distinction is I don't believe that. It's just millennials who are susceptible to it. Because I know
lots of people my age group who happened to be heavy social media users who are just too susceptible to follow. Yeah. Sidestepping there as the resident millennial on the I guess at this point. I'd say that may be dares needs to be a connection of experience in social we see it a lot with a lot of the pop ups happening. A puppet experience is happening in New York on some have happened in Atlanta and the
best brands or newer brands have adopted the fact that people are on their phones, but they're also living life, right? So if you can connect both of those then, of course, you'll get fear of missing out. I and people will want to go to certain interactive museums. There was 1 at the national. Building museum in Washington D C which was the shark house. If I'm getting their name, right? And it was just an interactive art exhibit that people
loved in the Instagram did and so audiences and people, you know, that increased. So what I would say is. Of course, you wanna adopt some social media usage. But you want to look at how can you use other? Mediums? I'm in other places to drive that fear of missing outright. Severe miss outs. Always about the experiences that people see on those social media platforms not necessarily being on the social media platforms up. So I I totally agree. I I feel like good needs
to be a much wider youth of media platforms in order to get the attention of the user, you can't just rely entirely upon social media. But I I do believe that social media is the the key driver here that has created this fomo epidemic. I mean, there's there's absolutely no factor of mouth. I'm very sure any. In someone talked about it. But when that's multiplied by billions, I on social media with the internet. Then you get
this larger fear of missing out epidemic. Well with that it's time for the Advil 5, but before we get to that segment of the show. I do want to take this quick opportunity to thank my guest again. And allow them the each to a shameless plug starting with Jonathan Baskin you can find him at Arcadia lab.net. That's the home of Arcadia, MediaLab tell me what's going on in your world, Jonathan what would you like to promote? Well, Bob, I'm I'm doing to content platform
activities these days, and I invite anybody to come check them out. I I've started a podcast on Pippa. And if you look for you search for the brand populist, I'm posting a short audio essays on what it means for brands when customers start acting like their owners. And I'm exploring that idea. And I think there's probably a book in at somewhere. There's I'm actually just testing out content. The second is a a blog almond riding now for a while called across of silicon.
Which is about challenging notions about technology. And specifically how we talk about technology, and how there's a widening gap between what arguably it should and can do or an understanding what it should and can do. And and what people really expect from it. Or are scared about it. So the brand populist and across of silicon are both content platforms. And I invite anybody check him out. Please comment. I love conversation, and I will reply and that inspires
me to dust the dust off a blog I have called death by advertising because I do have death by advertising.com. I love that domain. I just need to do something with it. So inspirational what you've done for me next up. We have Darin Martin you can find him. It's streamlined media.co that's not a calm. So get that. Right. So tell us turn what would you like to promote? Yes. Well, Bob, thanks again for having me on and I like to promote bowl
culture today. Bowl culture works with brands and agencies to reach resonate and retain diverse talent. And consumers we do that. By insights reports consulting both on a talent level in marketing level and connections also to talent, and or influencers, and so you can check out some of our research and content at bowl culture.co. And bold cultures of fabulous consultancy. So you definitely want to check that out and last, but not least
Tim nod. You can find him at Cleo awards.com. That's easy enough. We also have a site for muse was a let us you tell them about. But tell us what would you like to promote man? Well, so yeah today is as we record the the ninth of September. And as the to Montana bursary of music, which I launched on July ninth, and you can find it at muse by Cleo.com, and it's a new site all about creativity and marketing and sometimes beyond marketing,
we're doing some really cool stuff. We're doing a Q. And as with creative people we're delving into new campaigns convos some of the stuff I was doing it ad week. Just a little more in depth. And we're also running a series of really interesting essays about creativity from working creatives people in the business. Many of whom you've probably heard of some you haven't. So check us out were were pretty new. And if I if the first couple months are any indication, I think it's gonna be a pretty fun rest of the year. So at some used
by Cleo, C, L I, O.com care ways, the check it out. And as for me for more information about me or the show. Visit the beam cast.com where you can find a complete show archive. You can find out how to consult with me. You can even find out how to advertise on the program. So check it all out at the being cast.com. And don't forget. We now have transcription services. And that's provided through transcribe me.com. You can go to transcribe me.com/being cast for a special offer. They're giving it
to our listeners as part of this promotion that they're doing, but they're giving me free transcription you get the benefit from it. So definitely check them out. Transcribe me.com/the being cast. And now it's time for the ad fell 5 or rundown of the lowest moments in advertising marketing and public relations from the last week. Now, I stop apples famed walled gardens. Seems to have a snake in it? And that's naked is a very large python. Indeed. He heat the top selling
paid up on the app store, or at least 2 was was adware doctor apparently this wonderful apps, stole a user's browser history. Jonathan and Senate to China for new whatever purposes it was supposed to be doing apple knew about the problem for several weeks yet did nothing about it until just before this show. I hear the took it down off the the the app store. So. It's it's surprising to me that of all the places
where this would happen. It happened on the app store because I can imagine something like this happening on the Android store. Very very easily. Yeah. No, definitely. And I and I think it's your point specific to apple and it and Tim Cook's of vowed commitment to not being up an exploiter of privacy at 2 to let this happen is is a shocking, but I have 1 word comes to mind Foxconn. So, you know,
companies are imperfect, and I actually am willing to maybe because I drink the Kool-Aid on apple, but I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and say whatever process they had to simply broke down. And they miss this 1. I actually I'm willing to Samec and read too much into it. Well, next up KFC is offering 11000 dollars in scholarship money, Tim, so get ready 3 the first family to name your child Harland
if that child is born on their founder Harland Sanders birthday September ninth that would be like today. So some poor kid now has the name Harland. I don't know. I mean, obviously, they got a lot of attention for this. But it seems like mocking attention for this which doesn't seem beneficial. Well, it's the same thing, isn't it when it comes to KFC work. I mean, widens widens KFC works always had a bit of self loathing at the core as much as I
as much as I admire a lot of of their work, but Harland is a terrible baby name and kudos to KFC for acknowledging that and having some fun with it. Not many nominee. Brands would make fun of their founder in such an incredible variety of ways as caves he does unless you're [laughter] it's completely completely fine to make fun of your founder. But that's the point. Speaking of pizza, Domino's Russia severely
underestimated their markets desire for free pizza here. I love this 1 darn they offered a 0 years of free pizza to anyone who tattoo the Domino's pizza logo on themselves. The two-month promotion lasted only 5 days after the company was flooded with way, too, many submissions to make it economically possible to feed that much of Russia [laughter]. It's always goes back to the first time. I was on this podcast. And we talked about
build a bear. Right. They just don't understand that. Don't learn from these free promotions. It's too many people will literally do crazy ideas dislike combat down. Yeah. Yeah. You think you'd learn the landscape is littered with stories. Exactly. Like this. It never works. Why aren't you listening? I think it's great press for them. I think that's a gate as story for them. So they'll figure out a way to to accommodate. Well, the Scottish gyn
society had its promotion pulled by the advertising standards authority in Great Britain over supposedly light-hearted campaign that told your liver to shut up in the Jin was the cure for incurable sadness. Jonathan probably they should have checked those regulations of what canning Campi said in liquor advertising. I'm you know, I'm listening to this. I mean, it can't be that different in Great Britain over the United States in terms of liquor advertising. You can't say
things like this will solve your sadness it just right or running a running full page ads saying, hey, opioid addicts take more. I mean, it's nonsense to me. I it. I think of those it wasn't there a whole series of movies or no it was a twilight zone episode where. At the end the characters found out that they were marionnettes. They were puppets. Oh, yeah. I think. Yeah. I think this idea of Brant whether it's the
tattoos. Whether it's go abuse your liver. Whether it's a 0 year, you know, its name your baby Harland, this is like consumer abuse. This is manipulation. And it's funny, and it's engaging. But at some level, it is really to Tim's point. It's sort of self loathing of these brands to do these things to their customers. Like, it's like telling them, I know that you know, you're stupid. But you know, whatever this is going to be okay because you bought into this collective loose nation. I just
think. It's just bad. Karma will visit the Scottish Jim society at death by advertising, DACA, you're here [laughter]. Unless for not least gay dating apps. Scruff turn has pulled all programmatic ads from its platform citing data security as being impossible to maintain with the available programmatic platforms that were out there on the market this 1 on its surface seems like it's a simple
story. But it's basically saying there is not a single programmatic platform out there that will keep their data safe. And keeping user's in good. Yeah, I'm not I'm not dealing with it with SCRUFF. But definitely for some of our media partners that we're working with. We just get some crazy. Interstitial pop ups that come up. I will I won't name 1 huge advertiser. Who has it the worse eh, but they just did a larger merger.
And I I don't know. It's just for me. We've completely cut down our programmatic advertising on stack and we only work with 1 or 2 because of this issue. It's just too much. You don't know what the added security is the data security, and they also want too much information just in the contracts that they send us to sign. So. Kudos to discover that kudos to them. And how you out there. You have
something to add to this list or just wanna discuss it common online. Use the hashtag add fell 5 that's pound Advil and the number 5. Well, that does it for this week's show if you'd like to subscribe to this podcast, visit our website at the bean cast.com and click on the subscribe link if you're an I tunes listener, we've also provided a direct link to the I tunes music store or just search for the being cast in the podcast directory of I tunes and whichever podcast directory us when you subscribe,
please leave a serve you got a comment have a question we'd love to hear from you just singer emails to being cast a gmaiLcom opening theme was performed by. Joe side will closing theme by C Jack's thanks for listening. I'm Bob nork. We'll be back again next week. Hope you'll join us then
she's like, she's exactly.