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For Monday September seventeenth 2018 it's time for this week's of this not being cast a weekly discussion about the news than issues. Facing marketers today? I'm your host Bob, thanks for joining us this week. We got a clearer idea of what the easy world might look like over the next decade and
creative services may be playing a lesser role. But it has in the past the question now becomes where will creative living this future world. Tonight world discuss also whether location-based type has a major roadblock managing to analogy in social media. Another look at ads and the streaming universe. Plus this week's at fell 5 that's the lineup. Let's meet tonight's panel.
Thanks for joining us for this week's being cast on Bob Moore. And with me on the panel for this evening. We start with the chief engagement and brand officer at H E health, MS joy, al-tamaari joy, welcome to the program. Thanks. How are you? How are you? Great Sunday night. It's not raining. So as well [laughter]. You broke our magic nobody knows that we record on Sunday
[laughter]. No also with us. We have the man behind the odd contrarian blog and author of bad men. The chief aggravation officer at the Taipei group, Mr Bob Hoffman, Bob. How are you man? I actually I have a little bit of a cold. So from crankier than usual tonight. Don't take it personally. Okay. How could we its own brand for you? It's definitely Iran now next up. We have the newly installed Admiral and co-founder of the
HMS beagle and author of many books, including his classic life after the 30 second spot. Mr. Joseph Jaffe, hey, Joe. You know, it's got a good ranked? I'd like I like hearing that you title, and I have to tell us a little bit more about later. It's clever. It's clever. If those of you out there haven't figured it out. You got to think about it think about it hard. And finally, she cut her teeth as a strategist creative vice in east now, she's co founding a business culture transformation consultancy called the shift
workshop CEO, MS Amanda, ru hi, Amanda. Hi, bob. It's MandA and a sec- tonight or hear you tonight. Well, so glad to have you on the program. Well, we're going to jump right into the topics as we usually do I stop we've been talking about the future state of advertising for some time on this program all about all the different things going on from. From management consultancies to re imagining the agency world 2 different
services that are being put in play. But this week with the release of the s 4 perspective. We get a deeper understanding of, sir. Martin's vision of the role of agencies in creative is definitely not at the center. No Accenture, Deloitte, S 4 many others. The new world is focused on a mix of consulting to the C suite. And then delivering production services, creative doesn't seem to be part of this equation. At least not in any kind of significant way. My question Bob is
where does creative fit in going forward. Is it always going to be service at agencies offer? Or does it have to live somewhere else? What's your take on us? Well, I can talk about this for about an hour. Which is why you got the first question [laughter]. So we're going to talk and you when I come to obnoxious, you just yell stop. But the creative side of our business is being terribly devalued. Our creativity is quickly
becoming a support service and the alarming thing about this. Is that I believe creativity is the agency businesses only unique value clients everything else agencies do clients can probably get somewhere else. Boy, I'm going to stop you right away. I mean, it's it's like so agencies only offer creative services as their only unique selling proposition. What about strategy and thinking about the planning of the of the
program, and and how girl 0 business strategists saw every linked in page. They are our media companies all over the place. There are business consultants everywhere, you can get all the data you need with 2 clicks of a of a mouse. These days are the unique thing. At agencies have provided to clients over the
years. And the 1 thing that we do better than anyone else is imaginative ideas about brands in other words creativity. But our industry has lost confidence in that. And we don't think we can focus on creativity anymore that the agency industry I think is betting its future on playing the other guys game. But the way that the clients have valued
creative has has increasingly become as a service that can be negotiated down. It's become nothing more than work for hire. And it's not it's it's not a consultancy relationship. So really when you think back to the agency world even back in his glory days. You know, the creative was always what was given away in exchange for the media dollars. You know, that's where everything all the money came from the media buys. So isn't this getting back to brass
tacks with the advertising world by saying that creative is a service that needs to be part of this production house, Sube range, men or production services arrangement. And it's really not the star of the show. The star of the show is good marketing strategy that drives business. Law [laughter]. Think creativity has always been at the heart of the agency business now, you're right. The financial arrangements
traditionally over time, but based on on media button and stuff like that. But that's not where the value was placed by most marketers most most marketers picked agencies based on what they felt they could do creatively to improve their business to create imaginative ideas about their brands. And that that is no longer the case. And you know, Martin sorelle said not
long ago in talking gave in London quote media has become more important than the message. This is unacceptable. This is someone who believes someone who believes this believes that the instruments are more important than the music that the canvas is more important than the painting angry, I could go after you for some of the now, but I want to give some other people a chance to talk, and I'm going to go to Amanda. I you come from a strategy background. And you know, what what's your take
on? This is creative adjusted service that can be negotiated down. It's part of the the the general it's the general deliverables of the agency. Or is it something more important to the relationship? Like Bob seems to think what's your what's your take on that? Yeah town. I I think it is that I mean, creative is the secret sauce. So totally on board with that by coming from the strategy kind of background like good strategy is creative and should start to unlock
those big creative and transformative business changing ideas that is what these companies are hungry for which is why they are turning to the consultancies and things like that. Because they've gotten so much bad strategy from the agencies they work with so and a lot of agencies arrested on their laurels of just creating mediocre creative. So I think the agencies are broken. But it doesn't feel like. The Accenture and the Deloittes are the right answer.
Either. I think it's about bringing good strategy together with exceptional creative to create the transformation that these companies are really looking for. Join I want to bring you in on this conversation because the way I look at it. There's 2 ways to to take this 1 is that creative is being devalued in another way, creative as being set free from the confines of the agency world relationship in being given a much higher more important
role because it doesn't exist as part of this agency relationship, it's much more a creative consultancy relationship where you're you're more involved in implementing business strategy with good creative Content's conceptualization. I mean is that the way you see it or do you have another take on this? Yeah. Actually agree a little bit with Amanda. I think shot, you know, I came from the agency side I worked on agency type of 14 years. I think that the
agency model is broken because a stop telling it they no longer tell the truth may take that brands were going to shine clients. They're looking for the truth and a creative used to be the mirror that people that at that brand marketers looked at as this is the source. The single source of truth has driven from an insight that helps me talk to my consumer in a way that I never thought of an agency's used to be that voice. They weren't concerned west
they weren't consumer being nice, and and placating organizations or brands or client, and so he seek side. There's something we have to go a little further back and realize when we when they siloed the the disciplines into different organizations within the agency framework that was the beginning of the end because you no longer had 1 Oregon 1 entity that really could hold a mirror up to a brand and say, this is who you are.
And this is what your consumer things about you. And the creative is the inner result as meta said from a strategic. Point of view of how to actually change behavior. Will you disturbing describing those sounds a lot like what the management consultancies can offer they can offer they can offer business strategy that can offer direction in. They're building up the the production services. So that they can, you know, implement ads and all that they're missing
really at the level that agencies deliver it is creative from that number actually offer it the essence of the of the agency framework is not as Ariza essential or Deloitte and consultancy process that they're they're blurring or thing. No, I I think that it's confusing because we live in a data driven world now in so brands want to justify their budget underspend. And so they're looking at consultancies who that's that's
what they've been able to do for from the beginning. They've always been able to pinpoint. This dollar resulted into this KPI, which then reach the this revenue stream, but agencies were never the core. Part of agency life agency world was to really be the truth tellers, and the storytellers and consultancies can't do that the await can't tell a proper story to emotionally move and change behavior. They can track it. But they can't do at agencies
deal. And and I think it's it's gonna be interesting to see what he blogs as they continue to put kind of mathematical equation next to something that while it is strategic is also combining human behavior and emotion to drive to drive revenue. Drew futures a different scenario. Here's another scenario that we can maybe contemplate for a second 1. If the the agencies and the management consultancy's and everybody
else deliver the strategy. But the brand takes ownership of the creative is the brand capable of taking ownership of the creative in July delivering the type of results that agencies of typically delivered. And in quite frankly, isn't it better for the for the clients to own that particular piece of the puzzle instead of shuffling at all because they're of alternately responsible for executing the brand for delivering the brand
for managing the brand for making sure that the brand is always on message. So shouldn't they own that? I mean, we we've seen a trend of late where? Plenty of large corporations are bringing in agency services in house, and they're doing it specifically for for 1 reason, which is which is a cost savings and efficiencies. But you know, I was listening intently to
to the others talking. And I think I think it's important to take a step back, and and look at the source of of this topic. And also the person behind it, which is some Morton sorelle. I believe we discussed this on a show, months and months and months ago, which was mozzarell- when he was at the helm of WPP was kind of bemoaning lamenting the reality that they were getting their lunch stolen. On both sides that we're getting stolen by the tech firms, the
googles Facebooks and then on the other side by the the management consultancies. And and the reality is that, you know. Harry is in his new role. This is very Andy grove, Ian, in the sense, the story of Andy grove of how he fired himself, and then was rehired the next day. And the first thing he did was real. It was going to say he's yellow light Eddy grove was was to start diversifying
from the micro process of business. So here you have liberated Morton sorelle. And and I think it says something very very clearly and very troubling. If you're in the creative thought of the business that this is the side of the business that he is bypassing. This is a guy motivated by 1 thing. And I don't even mean this as a criticism, the schism, this is a bean counter. This is a money guy. And I think for the first time he's recognizing that there's no money to be made
in the side of the business. And so if anybody so in a way, what we will be debating who cares because whether we debate the source of creativity, or or who who owns creativity. The fact is. We're being disintermediated whether we like it or not. And and I think the thing is, you know, every 1 of these large management consultancies, including the likes of the IBM's out there or go out there and buying creative agencies. They're trying to to build in the whole
vertical. Integration. Play by owning downstream the process. There isn't 1 creative agency that's trying to figure out how to swim upstream and own business strategy, and if they don't figure it out, they may not be creative agencies left. You know that brings me full circle back to ball because I'm looking at this situation. And I'm thinking that creative agencies. Creative
agencies are not as important as we think that they are overall. But they're the same time. They're so important because agents are the clients are able to implement their creative strategies in any kind of meaningful way. So is this going to end up being the same thing is people going off of cable? Subscriptions cutting the wiring doing over the top. And then realizing it's too expensive to do subscriptions with 20 different services. And they really don't get what they want and they end up back on a cable
subscription, and I feel like it's the same thing's going to happen with this particular situation. We've got a lot of clients who are actively looking at trying to disintermediated agencies and get the most bang for their bucks. But in the end, they're gonna end up having to go back to an agency type model, whereas they're not going to be able to get the type of creative impact that they've gotten in the past. I wish I could believe it's gonna work that way. But I don't think it is. I think the agency business has
lost sight. Of what what the business is. I don't think we know what our businesses anymore. We business consultants. Are we data manages our technology experts? Are we marketing specialist what business we and we used to know we're in the business of making ads? That's basically what we did. And then we had some services around that. But that's not like the it's like the wine business no longer making wine.
You know, it's not about the wind anymore. It's about the bottles of the labels and the courts and the advertising business about advertising, and what is advertising its ads made by people. And we're we're we're saying that's not what we do anymore. And we're not very good at it anymore. We used to be you know, the the advertising world is probably in the worst disres- disrepute that I've seen it in in years in decades. People don't like
what they're seeing coming out of advertising agencies. They're not doing good job on creative. And if and if the agencies are going to produce mediocre, creative. Well, the clients can produce mediocre creative just as well. And that's what's happening. And I think it's going to continue to happen. And I don't see a good future for creative agencies. You know, how I hate to disagree. I hate to sorry agree with Bob. But I know, but I completely agree with him. And I, and I
think the problem is is that the business they're between a rock and a hard place because everything he said is absolutely right. But if they if they go back to saying, let's just focus on making ads because that's what we do. And that's what we're great at how much how much of a sustainable business is is make an ads. In sustainable business. If you stick to it. And if that's what you do. And if you're not looking to be the largest agency in the world, if you're 1 of these consolidated
global holding companies, it doesn't work because you need to create you need to get into businesses that you don't know very well. And that's what they've done. They've invested billions into businesses that they don't know very well, and the result of that is they have not invested the money into the creative aspect of their business, which they should know. Well, and the end there there is operating as a result. The what people want them for or
used to want them for they're not very good at anymore, and the the the the business is in terrible shape. I think. I see. Well, we're going to move on and talk next about location based marketing and how location which was so hyped for so long is suddenly on the outs with a lot of marketers will discuss that and get to the heart of what's going on. But I. I want to talk about our sponsors evening. You heard at the top of the show. We have linked in his the sponsor, and they have a 0 dollar
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their support of our program. Well, only a few years ago, we couldn't stop singing the praises of location based marketing, but now after numerous scandals, we've got GDP are in a whole lot of public outcry. It seems that the promises of the tactic are largely on hold or otherwise withering on the vine, so Gye joy, booed joy [laughter]. Joy. It's simple. It's so
simple. And yet so difficult joy is the current climate. Just a setback. Or is it a sign of ongoing struggles to come watch your take on this current dilemma that location marketing currently faces? Oh, this is the question that I love to talk about [laughter]. So as you mentioned, I'm chief and gator number an officer for a healthcare company. So prior to GDP are I have been in a constantly thinking
about hip and hip is actually were stranded to GDP are. So I think health information for tub privatize, Sal, you know, hit. But basically doesn't white doesn't want anyone to know anything about anybody ever [laughter]. I am. So I look to to church and state type thing where the patient information does not mix with marketing information, exactly up slight. If you think about the business
that I then. That's probably the 1 place where you want to know as much about someone and help them. You know, help them before they even newly need help. If you're if you're in prevention, which is what we're an right. So we're thinking about how do we understand where people are we we want to use location based marketing, we want to use programmatic marketing because we want to be able to you look at their behavior in in an environment where they are actually talking about
what's concerning then and in some way, speak to them in a a and engage them in a relevant way. The the basic the basic principles target marketing rate incident, you have this, you know, 2 years ago, this company Cambridge Analytica with this other smaller company called Facebook talking about in the news about you know, what they're actually doing. And it's freaking everyone out in the world.
So GDP are comes out, and we find the public the major. There's a public outcry about privacy in the United States. And now we have all of our customers all of our clients being a little bit more resident to actually allow us to do what we do bass, which is target marketing. So. To answer your question or to go back to your question is this. It is this current climate a setback or is it a sign for ongoing
struggles.com, I think this is actually an indicator of how much more critical people are going to be around. What we know? And how we use it. And the dresses the entire situation of data. I mean, it's just like in what you're saying makes a lot of sense from a data perspective, we need to be aware that people were much more critical, or at least conceivably are much more critical. I mean, I that's arguable
in GDP ours. Been out for. What several months now and European most Europeans have expressed no interest or care or concern whatsoever. About GDP data here at the general consumer is not aware of privacy, yet, they are very aware of their location data and the information about where they are physically. Located for some reason that is always carried a stigma that is
so much more concerning to the average consumer. Then whether or not someone knows anything from my personal information. People are much more concerned about their physical well being than they are about their data privacy. And that's that's coming to a head right now. And even though we send that location marketing was gonna be the coolest tool ever. And we're going to be able to launch ads on people's cell phone as soon as they walk into stores that kind of stuff is
largely not happening because people do not want to be. They don't want to be bothered in that way. They don't want to be. They don't want to be perceived as being in a location by some faceless. Nameless entity that has control of their information. I mean given consent. I agree with Iraqi people are freaked out to get anything pop. Anything pushed to that on their phone or anything push to them to that connotes. A that allows people to know where
they are unless they've given consent. You think about it you think about when you're traveling? I travel all the time, and I love when I go into a new civic city, and I immediately get Biggs pushed me to open TY. Get an ad for a restaurant Oregon ad for. Some extra curricular activity that I love because it's actually not only said my notice, my preference my past behavior. But it's also notice where I am now. And it's picked in curated things for me
that I love, and I think in general, I'm happy for the about that because I've given consent to that into intimacy. That's the biggest piece I think people are less freaked out. And this is what we as marketers have to explain to our customers. But also to the end user, the consumer that consent has been granted. And we have to take them on that user journey where they feel as though they've opted n not just. This is happening to them with other can without their knowledge. That's different. You're happy to
get that information as long as you know, that you've given consent for that comes back to you to talk to you about this question. But at the same time location has obviously stalled in ways that other data platforms of nut. Bob, you're you're gonna add something. Yeah. This is an example of how 1 by 1. The extravagant claims and expectations the online ad industry. Have turned out to be mainly fantasies. The
greatest delusion in our delusional industry is that precision targeted 1 to 1 advertising based on ad tech. Tracking and surveillance marketing is something that makes advertising more relevant than attractive to consumers. In fact, consumers mostly hate it. Every study I've ever seen on the subject shows that consumers rate the hyper targeted supposedly more relevant online advertising as the least liked and least
trusted medium for advertising. You know, like, I always disagree on that Stott, but mainly because that's the status true. You know, the people say that, but the act on ads at enough of a rate to make it valuable resource resources the same argument that we always gave about Tarik up. We always gave this 0 to 1 and a half 0 connected devices running ad blockers now. So it's not just what they say. It's what they're
doing. At the same time. You always had do not call do not mail list. People were we'd get on do not malice in yet direct mail continued to generate the kind of results that made it worthwhile doing I think the digital advertising just because there's people ad blocking. It doesn't make it less effective. It makes it more targeted with the people who are still opting in or at least allowing the messaging to come through. So I mean, if anything it's
more effective because it's more cost effective. You have a smaller universe in which to hit. And I mean, I I I think it was joy you mentioned the key. And I think we all know this is permission and his and his tenets pulls us as push. And and that's just the bottom line. I mean, when you you know. I to. Mistake because because because I think
I think I'll give you the online at industry, but we're talking about mobile health for the most part, and you know, and when you walk into an apple stole and your phone lights up and your phone lights up with welcome back to Grand Central apple stole. And you have all the functionality. And whatever the case may be that's non intrusive anymore. That is I think to you know, to to Bob ks point utility. So I think it's important to say that that, you know, this is a
intimately personal device. We we've said this 0 times we sleep with it under a pillow. We wear it in a breast pocket. So it's head hot during the day. And during the night, an advertises just will have very very short lived success. If they continue to spam. An interrupt our lives, it's just as settled as that Joseph. You just contradicted the whole. Conversation. We're having about the failure of location based ads.
I also if I contradicted attended aside was successful. You just said that local to apple and you get this in the location based stuff. And will end in Bob's telling us that location based advertising has been a fail. You know? Let me let me clarify. Let me clarify. Let me clarify what's going on? Because there are people who are doing location based marketing quite effectively are using Google is the prime example, they're doing an
excellent job of adding utility. When you search for pizza, you're not just getting a pizza? Place. That's near your neighborhood. You're getting 1 that's near where you are physically. And I mean stuff like that is utility based in it's useful to the consumer, and it adds relevance to the experience. But largely the promises of location based marketing, which were so extravagant and so into. All the opportunities of stalled out. And that's the question.
We're not progressing in location based marketing kind of stalled out with the same old tactics. And we can't move forward because consumers are. Back washing against it. And I'm wondering whether or not this can be overcome or whether we need to live with the situation as it is. Either way. And and by the way, part of the reason is, you know. Going back to the first topic. An acute lack of creativity and a lack of imagination. I mean. The example.
In a way, we're kind of talking about 1 of the oldest and most irritating examples. Of the promise of mobile marketing, which is I'm walking pasta. Starbucks. You know, and I get and I get a 25, you know. Coupon or discount. Over overlap with the reality is that is still the most irritating example. But today, you get that from your Starbucks app. And and and it's incredibly valuable once get Amanda. So
when I when I think when it comes to marketing as the point of view around messes, that's where we start to get tripped up when it's about like, we're trying to sell something or get them to do that behavior verses the utility and actually providing a service and providing something of value, I think a becomes the intention behind. Why were capturing that data and what we're trying to do? I think when it just does become about selling something at and that's where it becomes annoying
and obtrusive that it just doesn't work, and that's not what you want from me. We're giving out this data all the time. I assume that Google and Facebook knows everything. So I think even the idea of having this privacy is. Something that won't Amanda what you're saying is right in line with something that fireball stick as always said on the show, which is that if you don't have a strategy or use for the data don't collect it.
I mean, you can't just collect location data for the sake of 1 day, you might need it because consumers don't want that happening. You know, they're very sensitive about it. But if you have a specific utility in my name, a specific strategy that needs to be implemented behind that. Then by all means make a case for collecting that data with the consumer get the permission go for it in that way. But don't just collect it for collection sake. And when you use it. I think
that's the piece that Amanda was alluding to make it can't just be transactional. The consumer can't feel like you collected the data just to offer me a 25 cent coupon it needs to be more engaging. It needs to be. I'm walkie just because I'm walking past is what does it mean that I'm get that? I want 1 use my use the information. You have on me about de part of when I actually am drinking coffee and offering up to me if I'm passing a Starbucks. We can't be leasing with more creative about how we use the data is while the
stuff is engaging in the people wanted is mainly a delusion were annoyed by and they don't want it. And there's very very little utility in any event. I think we're just gonna have to disagree on that 1 [laughter] were used to disagree on the show [laughter]. Universal man. I be that different generations like it and respond to it differently. And I think when you walk
in. It's starting anything would. And I think when you want information, and it's there, and it's relevant to you. You will use it not everyone. Well, but if it's relevant to you. And it's it's bring in it's given to you. When you need it. You'll use it. Well, next up we're going to talk a little bit about turnout nowadays, social media and help brands are busy wasting their time. Doing fun. Exciting entertaining things when they should really be establishing more of a a serious identity. That is meaningful untrustworthy to the
consumers. We'll get to that in just a minute. But first an ad from Admiral. I come downstairs my over him. My my mom and dad to see that potentially. We might lose all our lost shop, and we've always had stores growing up. I guess I was just no bubble enjoying my Jovi music. And I didn't really realize that potentially our house was on the line. We both knew something had to change. I genuinely firmly
believed in the digital process in getting our seen online. I knew we needed help. And I knew we needed a platform to help get our content scene. And our message heard the first campaign that we engage with Admiral returned 27 times, the ROI I can turn back and say, look, look what we've accomplished to learn more about how knobs lemme and turned his family business into a global retail brand. Visit Admiral.com/being cast. That's a D R O
L L.com/being cast. Well, moving on when we discuss social we tend to focus on content service and real time conversations with the typical triumph for it of what social strategy tends to be but what about tone? What what's the right tonality for our brand are we professional or are we approachable? What's the what's the image? We want to project. Amanda, our brands missing huge
opportunities to project a meaningful image will wasting time with strategies like trying to be entertaining or fun or is there opportunity for both in the social spectrum. Your thoughts. Cowdery am I think? If you're not thinking about terminology as part of content are and real time conversation, and you're kind of missing the boat that that tonality is an extension of the brand overall at its extension of the company's vision its mission what is
trying to do. And how 'bout search? They manifest in the world and social has become an is another touch point from your brand. And should absolutely be aligned with what that brand is. If you are, you know, we all know the Oreo Duncan the dark. It's type thing where you know, that whole strategy was about building cultural relevance for the brand. And it was in the nature of the product to be playful, so something like bow is entertaining and playful and fun. And makes sense for
that brand. But is it right for every brand? I don't think. So I think it goes back to the idea of why are people reaching out to you? What is the or you don't in the dark, God, you know, we need to address that because they think this article took it from the standpoint the fun experiences like that were all the rage the early days of the social media revolution. But at the same time, they did nothing to enhance the relationship with the brand. All they
did was enhance this sense that. This brand is fun. But they're not serious. And you know, this need to be taken serious is what's at stake here. The tonality of what you're projecting shouldn't always be about. Hey, create wild and crazy were fun. We know we were you know, kind of a snack food, and you don't have to take us seriously that that actually harms customer relationships online, and the customer service opportunities that are
present it via social media, which by and large have been have become the more important portion of the strategic initiatives on social media is this is the customer relationship as opposed to the advertising opportunities. So I that's a long way to come around. But it's like what what's your thoughts on then? And he absolutely I think what people want overwhelmingly from a brand on social as customer care. Most importantly, they wanna be heard. And if
they're reaching out to you, it's because they probably to respond to they have a problem. It's a customer service channel. So if you can do that and that aligns with your brand tone to be entertaining. And and and in that way, then that makes sense, but you have like those that are still killing it in the social world like the Airbnb is and Casper's and go pros Patagonia things like that. That are not entertaining or playful, but you know, like Airbnb there they have a beautiful social feed because it's all
about connections and experiencing things like a local. So that's not necessarily, entertaining and playful, but it absolutely is true to their brand ethos and brings to life like. Their point of view in their position as a brand overall. When I wrote join the conversation 11 years ago, I came up with the 11 years ago. God, you're old [laughter]. Well, almost 12 and they're still
struggling now that I I came up with an acronym cold reach, and and it stood for response of the empathy accessible, connected and human. And those of 5 those were 5 ways that brands could reach out quite quite literally. And and connect with their consumers or the customers in a way that they probably could never be full. And I think all the points raised up and up and told, you know, up until now all of valid because if you are using it as a customer service channel,
which to me Astles into it as the greatest customer service channel overcrowded and nothing more. Then then you don't need to be cute, and you don't need to try and personify the brand will bring the brand to live. But in other cases, what we have seen is some humanity being shown by a faceless corporation that they did they could actually be a little irreverent or self deprecating on all take themselves. So seriously. And in some cases, they've been
good examples. Sydney, they've been good. They've been bad and they've been downright ugly examples of of brands trying to have a can of soda wanting to have a conversation with me. No, thanks, but it, but in other cases, they have been some very interesting plays. And and and you know, I mean, remember like, we all celebrated the Bronx zoo Cobra, I think they escaped Cobra set up a Twitter account and was having all these conversations. It was brilliant. And it was smart, and it was creative and it was original. And there was no
reason why couldn't have been associated with a brand bringing a mascot bringing some kind of a character to life. Except for Ronald McDonald because whenever clowns talked talk it gets real creepy real quickly. So so I think the thing is the tonality point. I'm so torn with this topic because on 1 hand, you know, I wanna be able to say get off. Mahlon stay away brands, you know, because my social channels or or or talking to real humans, but on the other hand, I
think if done well we've seen how they are opportunities and potential for brands to kind of a thing just bring a little bit more humanity and and life to what is faceless and sterile and inanimate. Joy want your thoughts on this because you out of all of us. You're the 1 is dealing with this from the brand side and having to you know, question whether or not your turn allergies right on your social feeds. How do you handle this problem? Are not this is
literally existence [laughter]. And you know, I am torn to because I come from such a branded background where us all of your channels to ticket to definitely promote that that the ethos of the company are that you go to the or of the organization and a brand. But when you look at things like social. And our social and our social platforms, especially we try to walk this fine line of having the correct tone because
we're in a very serious business. But while also being engaging and relevant and in some ways borderline lifestyle. If you if you if if you will and that always is a constant. Conversation because. We don't want to come off offensive. We don't wanna come off to a third tier of in the in the aspect of preachy. But we also want to come off as a approachable brand and tone
really can be misconstrued misunderstood, especially when you're talking about imagery, which is what most social as we re raise a lot of Instagram. So. I'm I'm conflicted as well. Because as a consumer I like to see some latest when brands, you know, our reverent, and when they actually speak to me in ways that are unexpected when they have like, a mascot when you didn't expect it, and you have this user generated content that Pete that demonstrates that people are engaging
with their brand and a different a new way. But you also have board of directors and CEOs and members who want to make sure that everything is consistent with their brand. And the value proposition is so. I don't have an easy answer. Tonality is hard. It's very hard during the bones is extremely difficult. I think that's at the heart of his argument. So really really feel for you. I wanna have been saving up for the
contrarian view. So [laughter] bog you take it away [laughter]. It's about creativity. Again, it's about how how you communicate with people in a creative way. Sometimes it can be fun. Sometimes it can be silly. Sometimes it can be serious. You have to have the right? Creative mindset in the right, creative people doing it who understand how to communicate. Well, that's the key.
Well, 1 last his food hall. I think that it really is just about giving that snapshot of the brand because so often like a new consumer will look at your social channels, your Twitter, your and go to your Instagram and see is this a brand from me. And that's why I think tone and having it aligned with the brand perspective and the brand positioning and looking at it beyond just what the social content is that it comes across all touch
points from how we were reply and engaged what our calls to actions are what are captions are how we direct message. What are bio as so it's so much more nuance that can come through. And it really is just a rich channel 2. Communicate about who that brand as in the the the adequately addresses the situation. I think that's a really great answer Amanda because at its heart a brand, I think too many brands stop at the promotional side of
their identity and don't really explore who they are in their entirety from every single customer touch point and a brand needs to be more nuance than just who you are in a promotional ad. I think that's an excellent answer. Well, we're going to move onto the final topic word this week that if net flicks were to add advertising, they would lose half their subscriber fees. Meanwhile, who is becoming more advertiser friendly as the days go by. We've got the ad question.
The streaming network being a looming question that comes up time. And again, Joe as streamers wrestle with this issue. What he believed to be the future role of advertising on streaming networks. Are we going to see ads on all the networks or as advertising going to go? The way of the dodo when it comes to streaming. Chaos advertising on streaming networks and and other short stories. It's gonna be an incredibly short story if they publishable cut out the best practices of of advertising and streaming services. I
mean, you know, that idea of net flicks would lose half a subscriber base, if they would had ads I'm surprised that number so low, I would've thought it would've been I f-, you know, I mean, the fact is the fact is I don't know that net flicks would ever. Need to because of the model? And because of what is today's best practice which. Subscription the subscription economy is I mean there there is a chemical knee undies where you can get
a subscription service to to underpants and underwear which I su- MS is new and not used, but, but you know, the the example with Hulu look Hulu began the culture in in their roots a comes from advertising. And you know, surprisingly, I don't have as much of an allergic reaction to. 2 1 ad that is branded that is customized. That is personalized
that introduces a show an the example in in 1 of the support articles that you sent around a talks about 1 of those cases. But let's just be clear. This is not opening the floodgates to 13 to 17 minutes of advertising per hour of programming. This is 1 ad right? At the beginning. Introducing a show that has been branded and cut. I mean, this is just branded entertainment. And it is highly highly curated and personalize and
customized and probably quite expensive to create a unique piece of creative for a piece of programming. The fact is that you know, could the market support something like that. Sure. But but all we going to see it scale and all we're to see it reach any kind of critical mass. And economies of scale capable of replacing lost advertising from terrestrial networks. No way. Jose, you know, 1 of the things that strikes me about this question. Every time
is the simple data that net. Flicks has. Hundreds of millions of subscribers. If I can if I understand the numbers correctly, hundreds of millions of Scribner's with no advertising wall, Hulu who has copious advertising only has somewhere in the neighborhood of 400000 subscribers and I for me that's the damning evidence that advertising is not as well supported on the streaming services as it is off the streaming services. You
know, that the string services have to come to the fact that people wanna pay if they're gonna pay for you to stream continent to their home. They don't want the ads in addition to that. And I think that's that's for me is the the be all and all of this question via contrarian. Yes. Please. As businesses mature as that customer growth counts diminish. But their shareholders, demand, greater profits. We need to look for
revenue from new sources. In every medium that could monetize advertising has monetized advertising. The streaming video business is no different. This is it's a slow motion bayton switch just like Facebook old off just like PBS pulled off. I promise you sooner or later every 3 video service era. Every video service will be selling some form of advertising just a matter of time
not naturally extend your net flicks. And and the fact is I think the crimson tide. I want to tell you that I got a notification on my mobile phone in a 1 of those location based on notifications that you know, it was just a it was just 1 of those little pro processed charges. It was my monthly net. Flicks though. I'm paint 14 dollars and 95
cents. Mine Taya family uses net flicks. We downloaded we download it on top funds. I'm I almost I almost contacted net. Flicks to say, you know, what I feel like I should pay you a little bit more. I think maybe we should have a chat about your pricing because it's way too low shut up Joe [laughter]. I I know that right now that. Entire C suite of miffed lakes are listening to the show that fact
[laughter], but but but the fact is at 14 95 they've got so much room to move if they need a little bit of a little bit more revenue. Bob Bob age, you know, they could probably increase their prized by quite a bit. And I don't think anybody would complain. And if you look at the elasticity of how many subscribers they lose from increasing the price versus adding advertising, you know, this is not even close we're not gonna add advertising as we think of
it. Now, they're not going to be winning 30 second spots in there. But there's gonna be promotional material on their sooner or later. But people will be paying for. That advertisers will be painful. We'll see where most of the lady looked at 10 years from now will come back together, and we'll see [laughter]. Well, it's a date, but for now it's time for the Advil 5, but before we get to that segment of the show. I do wanna take this quick opportunity to thank my guest again. And allow them the each Jewish
shameless. Plug starting with joy L to marry you can find her at WWW.E, H, E.health. That's the home of the E health her organization where she is the chief engagement and brand officer said tell us what's going on in your world. Joy, what would you like to promote? Wow. I definitely want people to go to eat at health on where we are here to making a employees healthier and live longer. I'm an impersonal. Definitely check me out at at joy, Denise if you're on
Instagram, you'll just get the peek into my life as a mom as away as daughter. Thank you so much for having me. Oh, you're welcome. Thank you so much for being on the program next up. Bob hoffman. You can find him at type a group.com. That's the home of all his speaking engagements in his books and everything else that he's doing. That's exciting in the ad world. Tell us dance contests. Yes. You can also get a link to the contrary in his long running log, so tell us what's going on
in your world of what would you like to promote? Do things I want to clog 1 is a new book, entitled, eat your greens. That will be published in a few days. The book is a series of essays about advertising by about 35 of the industry's. Most fertile mines and 1 dumb ass. Blogger the authors include Byron sharp, and Mark Richardson and people like Deborah Sutherland and myself.
And the book I think is gonna be is going to be very worthwhile. It's called eat your greens. The other thing I want to plug is a new book that I have that. I'm gonna be. Publishing in about 2 weeks. I can't tell you the title of it because it's so outrageous that you will talk me out of publishing it and then world the world will be deprived of a literary masterpiece.
But look for it in a couple of weeks. It's I'm hoping that it's going to be the silliest copious most injudicious book about advertising and marketing that we've seen in a long time. I'm not saying something from us. Definitely look forward to seeing that. Jrue Jaffe, you can find him at this new agency. I'll let him tell you all about it and give you a web address because I am totally unprepared for this. But tell us what's going on in your world. Joe? What would you like to promote of
first of all I wanna I wanna do on technically out of joys book because she said, thank you so much for satellite. She said thank you so much for having me. And I I want to say that to you as well, Bob. Thank you so much for having me. I know I know I'm on often. But I appreciate every opportunity to hang out and and disagree with Bob hostile. It's a lifestyle choice. So so yes. So I I'm excited that this is maybe the first
official time that I'm even talking about the HMS beagle. I started of the company with Lynn power. Who was most recently the CEO of J W WT, New York. And it's so funny because the first topic that we discussed tonight, I was ready resisting the urge to. Comment about the company because this is kind of why we started the business. We started the business as former agency people ourselves. Recognizing that right
now, you know, a large percentage of the fortune 500 global 2000 companies have got bigger problems right now, then worrying about the Knicks real time tweet, or or tagline or even the definition of creativity. The therein the survival business and so. You know, we say at the Biko, and we're not an agency were a strategic consultancy that helps clients navigate the Juny to survival because we believe that every company today is in the survival business and yet we're launching in the next
couple of weeks. So you'll see more more from us and about us. We're very excited for those of you that don't know the HMS. Beagle was a ship that sailed 200 years ago and Kerry, Dr Charles Darwin, and and it was on that second voyage that he formulated most of these theories on evolution. And so it kind of feels like I've come full circle considering my previous company was called evolution. And if you wanna find out a little bit more about us, very succinctly. You can go to the HMO
Spiegel.com. Fantastic. Awesome. And yeah, very very clever. I love the name. So very very well done. Thank you. Well know last, but not least Amanda ru you can find her at the shift work shop.com. That's the home of her consultancy that she is the co founder and CEO of Amanda, tell us what's going on in your world. What would you like to promote? Yes. Thanks for having me, Bob, and it's been a pleasure to be on here tonight. I am
absolutely promoting this new business were hair trying to do something a little different, you know, in the post metoo time's up advertising world the advertising agency a advertising world said that they wanna adopt. These new progressive agency training and education programs that brings this discussion and many other solutions out into the open. So here we are kind of working on personal development in the workplace that brings healthy healthier,
happier. More connected humans together to make workplaces that are more profitable and more productive more creative and places where you want to actually go to work. So that's what we're doing and words launching some initial workshops, and we are down to get down. So let's get to work. That's awesome. And I love hearing about it when we talked about it just a couple weeks ago. So definitely check that out the shift workshop.com. And for me. For more information about me or the show. Visit the being
cast.com there you can find a complete show archive can find out how to consult with me. You can even find out how to advertise on the program. So check it all out at the being cast.com. Quick note a couple of weeks ago on the show. I talked about this new service that I'm working with colds, 16 zeros. I didn't mention it by name, but it is 1 6 zeros.com. It basically takes your phone number enter it in and it fills out your complete reforms network, whatever that you have to do for signing up a new
customer, so shipping address Email address all that information that's already tied to the phone number immediately becomes available. That's what I was talking about. So check it out at 16 zeroes.com. If you wanted to get more information, I got a few calls about its own to make sure I get it on the program. Also, if you want a transcription of this show, you can go to the being cast.com because transcribe me.com/being cast. Is offering you free transcript not free
transcription, but a special discount on transcription as a result of them giving free transcription to our show. It's a fantastic fantastic service. We love them for doing what they're doing for us. So check them out. Take advantage of their offer transcribe me.com/being cast. And now it's time for the ad fell. 5 or run down to the lowest moments in advertising marketing and public relations from the last week. I up agencies loved to sell their clients on business transformation.
Bob, but Forrester report seems to suggest that agency since cells are in desperate need of transformation. The chart itself is just damning until although it's crazy ran everyone's businesses, but our own [laughter]. The problem is I don't think we know what we're transforming into for the for the most part. I don't think agencies are clear on what they're trying to do.
And why they're trying to do it. And as a result there floundering, I'm not surprised by that. I'm not surprised by it either. Now next up Google has been frequently accused of being antagonistic toward conservatives in their ideas, something that Google has vigorously denied over and over and over again. But Joe, unfortunately, a leaked video of all the top executives bemoaning, the Trump administration does nothing to support their case. Now, I am not 1 to get on anyone's case for not supporting the Trump
administration. My very clear political priorities pretty straightforward on that subject here. But at the same time, if you're a major company, and you're trying to prove that you're supportive of all concerts, all ideas, all political spectrums on your service. It seems like a no brainer that you don't do corporate video showcasing all your executive saying how much you hate conservatives. Joe? Lost in not Joe is just
meeting. A judge Joe is just respecting the mute button [laughter]. And then and then forgot that he [laughter] novice going to say, I mean, unless of course that they leaked it purposefully. And you know, just 'cause I 'cause you know, who doesn't love a good conspiracy theory on this is. I say that in jest, but this, but this was truth in every in in in every bit of just because you know, this is a company right now
struggling with its employees, author, it's you know, with respect to some of its practices and labor practices, or or deals that they, you know, associated with China, and you know, where a bunch of developers and program is basically threatened to walk out. And so, you know, if they're trying to you know, alternately, certainly please Wall Street is 1 thing. Please customers is another thing. But pleasing employees is as important. And so I don't know if there isn't a bit of truth in the fact that this
video was leaked on purpose. Who knows? The may I may you think our whole, sadly, there's 1 thing that all the right wing nut jobs are right about and that is that the major media including Google and all their friends in Silicon Valley are left leaning. It's been that way for years. And it's the worst kept secret in journalism in this video just shows it,
well, we know dislike disappeared, it's a pure stupidity. If you could've gone on us 1 fixed. Well, next stop companies like to defend themselves against claims of sexism joy. But a study commissioned by Bloomberg news reveals that some shining examples that sexism is alive, and well, as if we didn't already know that, but in this, particular instance, snidey 2 percent of all people speaking on earning calls are men 92 percent. And
this is just crazy. This number [laughter]. Not shocking shocking. Right. I mean, yes, there's yes. There is sexism. I mean, I don't I don't think anyone would deny that look at what's happening in government. But I'm lacking. Make this political the facts are, you know, Pew Research into dozen 17 did or did a study we it is getting better compared to 19 95 where there were
women in fortune 500 companies are CEO's and now in 2017 there were 5 point 4 women [laughter]. It was a fortune 500 companies. Yes, it's getting better, but slightly sexism is alive issues with diversity are live as it relates to the C C suite, and it will not change until there's open dialogue around it. And that open dialogue will probably make people uncomfortable and most people don't want to be
uncomfortable. So we've got a they got to get over it. And we have to talk about it. And then we have to make actionable change people have to be dedicated to seeing more diversity more women in leadership positions in companies because it actually helps their bottom line. People who see companies who have you know, gender diversity and an in their executive teams. We know mckinsey's already said it they're 21 percent more likely to have above average profitability. So it's
not just good to do. Because it it makes everybody look good is actually good for your bottom line. So more discussion to be had. But definitely we gotta use the facts to change some people's mind. Not to be part of the solution a 0 a 0 percent since they're since they're they're they definitely have to be part of is loser [laughter]. No, look the privacy for makers of brave web browser have launched rather.
Damning GDP your complaint against Google. Amanda revealing just how far out of complaints the search giant his with consumer data. You know, at first there was that 1 complaint from that 1 guy the kind of circling its way through the courts, but this 1 has a lot of facts and statistics backing it up. It seems like Google has been playing fast and loose with everybody's consumer privacy in in Europe of your take on that. I think you
know, my opinion from earlier when I assume that Google and Facebook know, everything [laughter] that art. So I assume this and probably much worse to be true. Absolutely. May I add something? So of course, they just shows already through over way over. So you just go for [laughter], very important issue. I happen to know Johnny Ryan who has brought this complaint. 1 of the people who brought it.
It's not just Google that's at stake here. What we're talking about? It's the very this complaint is leveled at the very hard of programmatic advertising and tracking. And if these people. Our rent, and if the if the regulators and the EU see it this way, this is going to change everything about online advertising. This is a very big important issue. You've providers they'll be no Google search in Europe, which is a whole nother
love to see how this all works out. Last, but not least my favorite of the week f c b Chicago and glad the sandwich bag maker held an event at a Chicago restaurant to promote glad pressing seal cling film, Melba meal, included food prepared 3 days prior and preserved with the glad product a fact not disclose to attendees Joe at the first of 2 sessions that day until after after is the important word. They'd eaten the
meal as it turns out, people don't appreciate being surprised by the age of their food who knew this Joe lower the thinking [laughter]. I don't know what this has to do with that allergy btcu community. But you know, I I have to tell you. I actually like this. I actually think this is a great idea. I it's not a great idea to surprise people [laughter] tasted bright, and it showed the you know, that this is the product in action and
the product work and. I mean, what am I missing here? I think it's kinda cool. It's a little bit of a little a little bit of a bayton switch, but as long as they didn't get food poisoning or plastic poisoning or the crap. I mean, what were the second group? His second group was told you the second the second group was told about it, and they had very positive responses. But the first group was tricked into eating the food, and they had lots of negative feedback
coming out on social media as a result of it. I mean, it's what what it was all about is the trick. If they just said, you're gonna eat 3 day old food. See how fresh it is. I would've accepted right [laughter]? Physician at us 3 Dale as 3 day protected food [laughter]. Well, have something to add to this list. Or just wanna discuss it comment online. Use the hashtag add fell 5 that's pound
Advil and the number 5. Well, that does it for this week's show if you'd like to subscribe to this podcast, visit our website at the being cast.com and click on the subscribe link if you're an I tunes listener, we've also provided a direct link to the I team's music store or just search for the pot for the being cast in the podcast directory vitamins, and whichever podcast directory you use when you subscribe, please leave us a review got a comment of a question. We'd love to hear from you just send your emails to being cast a
gmaiLcom opening theme was performed by Joe cyber closing theme by C Jack's thanks for listening. I'm Bob nork. We'll be back again next week. Hope you'll join us then
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