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BeanCast 516 Transcript

BeanCast 516: Making the Pie

Date: 15-Oct-2018

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Bandwith provided by recruits of squirrel. Interactive transcription services provided by Visit them on the web at transcribe cast for up to 25 percent off. That's transcribe Episode 500 16 making the pie.


For Monday, October fifteenth 2018 it's time for this week's edition of the being cast a weekly discussion about the news in issues. Facing marketers today? I'm your host Bob north. Thanks for joining us


in the age of social media. We've been told time and again that transparency is what consumers expect from the brands. However, what consumers tell researchers is not always how they act does every brand needs to be transparent tonight. We'll discuss also good design as a replacement for traditional marketing whether mobile makes Email lesser quite podcast. Who is the new blogging? Plus this week's


at fell 5 that's the lineup. Let's me. Tonight's panel. Thanks for joining us for this week's being cast. I'm Bob nork. And with me on the panel for this evening. We start with the founder and president of convincing convert author speaker, Mr. Jay Baer, Jay. Hello, bob. Gregory back. Now also joining us we have digital futurist, Mr.


Cohen Guam, Colin welcome back. Thanks, bob. Great to talk to you. Great talking to you as well. And finally, we say Hello to founding partner of creative. Shop campfire, Mr. Mike Manalo, Mike. Hi, how are you? Good evening. Thanks for having me on. Well, we've got a lot to cover as usual, and I'm going to jump right into the topics. I up a recent study has reaffirmed that many have what many have been saying for a decade or


more that consumers are demanding transparency from the companies they choose to do business with they want fast direct, contact and demand total honesty and openness from their brands. At least this is what the survey says, but J when you think of the most successful tech brands brands like Amazon, Google, apple you, find nothing, but opacity you don't find hardly any transparency from these companies, so wine a disconnect. And what does it


mean for the theory that all brands need to be transparent in this digital age? Yeah. I'm not even sure what transparency from our brand actually means. Right now. Are you talking about often authenticity, right? That we want brands to 2 or are. We talking about humanity that we want brands to to to treat us as human beings. If it were were conflicting. Customer experience. Yes. Parents really interesting. Right. It's not the same thing. No. I I I've


I fully agree. I think that we we aren't conflicting issues when we talk about transparency because people who talked about transparency go all over the map on it. But I think what it means in the minds of the consumer. And this is where really counts when you're talking about a survey. That's consumer base getting the opinions of consumers about who they want to do business with. When they say transparency, they're thinking undoubtedly honesty, telling the full truth being, you know, completely open, and these are


things that are just way too reactive scenario. Right. More more. So than a proactive scenario the way, I take this survey that was done by sprout, social, and so I the way I'd traumatises it's more of a customer service scenario, which makes sense right in that situation where like, hey, something has gone wrong. Or I need information from this brand for some reason, then then transparency and authenticity and forthrightness would would certainly be a plus though, the 1 Staten here, Bob, I looked I downloaded the whole study and looked at through. The 1 thing I found was really


interesting is that. 67 percent of the consumers surveyed say that video. Is the most transparent medium. What [laughter]? I do. We do we really believe that. Or is that something that I do I do and for this reason at because I've done it quite a bit of a write in research on this topic and in a customer service. Context. Okay. Video is really really terrific. The example, I use


all the time is when Southwest Airlines had at a giant snafu and all the flights were canceled, and it took days to recover. They went on their Facebook page and instantly did a Facebook live with their chief operating officer saying, hey, we screwed up. We're really sorry is going to happen. It is turned on a phone did on the iphone disgruntle phone and and had their COO talk into it. I don't know if I would use the word transparency, but but that level of of forthrightness and authenticity. I think is attractive to consumers. Maybe that's what this the study's trying to get up, and


let me just say as a producer of the Blair witch project that I could say factually that video is not more transparent than any other form [laughter]. That's a good point the remote. You totally lied to everybody [laughter]. Well, you know, Colin what's your take on this situation. I mean of authenticity transparency, they're not the same thing. And when you're talking about being authentic.


That's a whole different story. That's what brands have done for decades. It's is this approach of trying to present yourself in the best possible light and to deliver on the promises of your brand at every single execution pointed every single experiential point so authenticity. I can totally by but transparency it doesn't seem to make sense for many brands. In fact, it could potentially be disastrous and a lot of instances.


I don't disagree with that statement. But I I come at it from a completely different point of view because I spent most of my career selling things to people that they they will ultimately consume. So whether was mountain dew or Doritos or an OTC product or or most recently, C B D products. When you're asking something of visit or you're asking a person of physically ingest, the thing that you're selling you need to be 100 percent direct and an authentic with them. Whether it's crap like mountain


dew, or you know, a Doritos and just be fun and irreverent with it. Because you know, they have nothing really to stand behind. But if you're gonna be selling something that people are looking for a remedy to a a a a physical ailment that they might have you need to be really on the up and up, and I think that that kind of authenticity and honesty, whether it's in a consumer service point of view or just literally like, what are what are you going to expect to get out of this experience when you buy our product. Is the


number 1 thing that people are looking for now. And I think that. The example that was given is a is a great way of saying, hey, we're going to open the KOMO and be this is this what really happens behind the the the glass wall of of an airline or behind a pharmaceutical company, or whatever it may be when you when you share with that audience your real truth. They are gonna feel more connected to you. And at least not like, you're just trying to sell them on something. So if you have a real


shortcoming to overcome or to to address. I think it's a great example was just from the summer Kentucky Fried Chicken. In europe. I guess they their supply chain logistics, gut messed up somewhere along the line, and they ran out of chicken, and they had to shudder their stores for 2 weeks in the U K. So they ran an ad that ran across, you know, most of at least the UK and parts of other parts of Europe that just said f c k rather than KFC with an empty bucket in it. And they they just it


was a miracle. It was like, hey, we're gonna help we're gonna make this right? But in the meantime, we're sorry. We we we can't serve you fried chicken for the next 2 weeks. That kind of is that is because the unindo that that's authenticity and honesty as much as you gotta do something because your business is gonna tank, you know, so it was this clever messaging, which again sounds like traditional marketing, it doesn't sound like any kind of new thinking it doesn't sound like true transparency. It just like nobody got involved online and started


explaining the logistics issues. They just said we screwed up which is true. And it's like that. It's nuts authentic. That's a step in the right direction. Yeah. My like even talking about it altogether. No, I agree with you 100 percent. I think that it was the the absolute right thing for them to do. But I don't know that in transparency someone else was going to jump in 'em. So yeah, I think in consumers minds transparency is also related to consistency between what the brand is constantly saying and what


they do. So you know, you mentioned Amazon, I think as a as an example of of opacity and you look at their mission statement, it's it's about offering the lowest prices the best selection and complete convenience. So when a controversy erupts like a Amazon workers, pay rights or the or just their pay I think people feel badly, and they'd like to see those people get paid, but they don't, but but but they don't feel like Amazon's really


hiding that. Because of course, they're screwing their customers. Their mission is to offer the lowest prices or or their employees their mission is offering lowest prices and best available selection. So I think when they try to hide that from the public. It's it's not seen as. Is is being not transparent in a weird way. It's kind of consistent with what they say. Whereas when you look at Facebook, a company that I think is being looked at as very unknown transparent. Their mission is to give people the power to build community and bring the world closer together. So


it doesn't fit because that's not where their revenue comes from. And they realize that aspect it. Feels completely untransparent me everything that goes back to the question of is it authenticity that consumers 1 or is the transparency, and I think again, and again in this conversation, we keep coming back to authenticity is what brand were consumers want. They want. What you're telling them. The you're gonna do with their data with their experience to actually happen. You know, the it. I


said, I don't think the consumers want to know how the pie is made. They don't really care about how the pious made. I agree with that 0 percent. They don't agree how the pious made. But if you if you step out, I have a longstanding belief that brands should be viewed as living breathing things. If you think of your brand as a person at a cocktail party, and you're open and honest and vulnerable, you're going to try to lot more people to your side. If you're going to stand there and pontificate about all the things that make you awesome. And not be real. Well, then you're just gonna be


another person at a cocktail party, who's the least popular person at the dance, you know, like this. It's. Just about it's not just about authenticity is about being the truest version of who you are as a company for that. To me is like worst splitting hairs between authenticity and honesty because those 2 things in my mind, go hand in hand. But firm for me, it goes back to that initial question that I started this whole conversation off with and j I want to go back to you on this 1 because. When I when I talk about Amazon


or we talk about Google or we talk about apple we talk about Facebook. These aren't just any companies these are the most valuable companies in the world and all of them are not transparent. In fact, they are the antithesis of transparency are if anything completely opaque. They don't let people know what's going on with our algorithms. They don't let people know what's going on behind the scenes customer service with Amazon's casing an apples cases, pretty good. But you still don't get a


insight into what's happening at the company. You just get good service throughout the experience. It seems to me that even though consumers saying they want transparency their action show that they couldn't give a crap about transparency because these are the most valuable companies and they're not being transparent. Yeah. I think there's probably a correlation between monopolistic power and the need to be transparent. And and I think you're right. That customers say they want 1 thing, but they


vote with their wallet in a different way entirely. Which is why in we've talked about on the show so often in the past every time, there's some sort of consumer privacy dust, oppo Facebook, gutter accounts, hacked, and this and that, and you know, now, they're tracking us this way. I knew everybody brings their hands for 2 weeks and goes back and does the exact same thing know, I don't see anybody in large measure, deleting their accounts. I don't I don't see people saying enough is enough which is 1 of the dangerous as you said at the outset of of survey work, right because


this is not a survey of how to consumers behaves as a consumer of what consumers survey of what consumers think they want which maybe isn't necessarily same thing. Exactly. Well, 1 is all this mean for the army of social consultants out there, Mike, you know, obviously, social media people are always talking about transparency, and I'm not a mock coming down on social media consultants or overall because there's a lot of really good ones. But


at the same time, there's an army of social media consultants preaching the gospel of transparency. What do we what do we do with that? I mean, it's it's like it are they right in in theory. And we're just conflating words, and it's just the term that everybody uses. So we shouldn't worry about it. Or do we need to make some active measures in order to become more clear about what we're trying to convey to our clients about what transparency means what then tests or authenticity means and what you should be


communicating to your client. Oh. Yeah. I mean, I mean that I think we need to be more specific when we took when we use these words like transparency and authenticity. I mean, honestly, I think the word transparency of just being used in place of authenticity because we've overused authenticity and turned it into kind of a buzzword. It's it's a bit of a joke. When a marketer says that now so just replace it with transparency, and I'm sure it give it a month or 2, and we'll have another word for the same thing. Transparency has been around for an


awful long time, though. So let me go here back to Jay because it's a sig. I heard you laughing because I know that this is a large part of what you talk about. Whoa. I mean, obviously, the are bring this up to you not put you on the spot because I know your your approach to transparency, authenticity and social media Anura, you you at least present a lot of ethical approaches to doing it. So this is not coming against you. But obviously, there are a lot of people


out there who are doing it completely wrong, or at least doing it. So in a in a kind of buzzword e type way that doesn't really communicate her clients true approaches. So how do we fix this problem? I don't know that I don't know that there's a fix, and I don't know that there's an empirical truth. But, but I'll tell you this what I've experienced in my own social media content that I create on behalf of myself, and certainly the work that we undertake for brands is that everybody wants to make a


movie and sometimes you're better off making a documentary. It was mentioned earlier that had customers don't want it to see the sausage being made. That's true kind of. But 1 of the things that that I wish someone had said get sauces gently. I wish someone had said spin the woman's to see the sausage being made someone said was he the pie being made? So apparently, someone got it completely wrong. He didn't say that analogous [laughter]. But I do feel like their consumers do have an appetite for behind the scenes, right? And in 1 of


the things that that we consistently harp. On with clients is. The things that clients. Find boring customers find fascinating because they're not used to it. It's not the, you know, they they don't overlook it. They think it's interesting. We were I was doing a speech recently for a giant group of thousands of plumbers. And like, look, you are bored by plumbing because you've been doing plumbing your whole life. But your customers are fascinated by plumbing because they don't understand it. So if you just shot an Instagram video once a day and talk for a minute about some weird plumbing thing people would love


it. And and that's when it when I when I say movie versus documentary. That's the kind of thing. I mean that was that transparency, I guess, but but it's not trying to sell you something at least not overtly. And that's what we're really I think that's what we've lost our way as always. And this should surprise. Nobody who listen to this show as Gary banner checks as marketers ruin everything. And and we have turned social into the media your social, right? Social media is about media. It's not about social not like it once was and I think we can get back to that a little bit people actually


respond pretty well. We're we're we're going to move on. And we're going to talk next about whether design alone can do the job of marketing. It's an interesting question 1 that I think that we can dig your teeth into for a healthy debate. But I. We're gonna have a word from our sponsor, Admiral. I got this phone call at 5 36 a m was tasked with devising a go to market strategy for a rebrand me knew that we had resonated with those hikers or those surfers are


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brand creative out there. You know, they definitely help me shine internally at sun ski from a marketing standpoint. To find out how some ski and 37000 other brands grow their businesses with Admiral does it cast. That's a D R O L cast. Well, moving on the former design chief at I a Marcus Anglian has a message for brands out there design of products packaging,


experiences is more important than most of your other marketing efforts he believes in this so much that he's co founded a consultancy that aims to steal way marketing dollars in the name of enhancing brand perception through improved design. Mike first of all, do you agree with this premise and second of all does it simply challenge marketing norms, or is this about eliminating the need for marketing altogether. What's your what's your take on the idea of marketing becoming just a design


challenge? Well. I think it's a really smart positioning for his consultancy [laughter]. I agree that design is more important than anything else. It it works as I think a bit of sales puffery, but it's really kind of myopic view of how people relate to products and brands. I think it's a an example of how when you make hammers. Every problem starts to look like a nail. So I don't believe it's an either or situation. I think you need obviously products and packaging and experiences. That are well


designed and consistent across every touch point from the communications on, but design alone isn't going to make everything else obsolete. So I, you know, I don't think it's challenging marketing. Norms. And I don't think it eliminates the needs for marketing. I think we do see some time some industries get disrupted by an upstart that manages to a cause a stir without marketing itself. But typically once they get to a certain size. They all start marketing


and advertising. So I I, you know, I think it like I said, I think it's a nice positioning for the consultancy. Yeah. What? Well said. I mean, I think there's a large part of this is in a positioning for something new that he's launching. So I understand that. But you know, I I teach marketing management at NYU and 1 of the things that strikes me about reading the marketing management books and getting into the basics of marketing. Is marketing starts at the product design. It starts with the


idea. It starts well before the communications picture comes into play. You know, so. In a large in a in a large way w- reclaiming design is actually potentially the most pure form of marketing that there is. I mean, I I I can totally see his point that design of product and making something excellent crates word of mouth creates interest in the in the company, and the brand design


packaging that experience there ever been a time when that hasn't been true there's been lots of times were poor product design does quite well. You know, it's like a cheap product design does quite well. I mean, you know, being excellent with through design is not the province of every single brand every every single brand some per some friends just have like mediocre design, and they do quite well because they have a lock on a market or their unique in some way. I


mean, you know, the the snuggie is not an amazing product. You know, it's like it's not excellent design, but it's functional design in a came off at the exact right time minute maid men. So, you know, and we're very good at marketing, and they're very good marketing for that. That's it. Right. I mean, it's not as 0 sum game here. I think if we if we if you like this is gonna be the the the show about semantics, if if we were with it, we replaced the word design with customer experience. That then then I


feel better about this. Right because his is customer experience required for successful product or service at at some level. Yes. And and more so than ever there's great research from from Walker that suggests that by 20 20 a majority of customer buying decisions will be based on experience, and it certainly a I won't problem. Right. You know, your economy's good when you can choose to make decisions based on customer experience, not price or availability, or or other factors. And as somebody who just wrote a book about about word of mouth. I think this is interesting because


you this is a. A low funnel way to promote a product or service. Right. Because you can't say we're gonna get customers because they are designed so good because only the customers who have already experienced a design. No, the design is good. Right. So so you can't you can't create demand. This way, you can take your current customers and turn them into more customers through word of mouth by having disproportionately good design or disproportionately good customer experience. And from that perspective. I agree with the premise, but this idea that you


don't need to create demand. You don't need to introduce your products to the world because you're designed is that good now. I I don't think that's true. Yeah. Colin I want to bring you in on this because this is your bread and butter, you know, marketing and advertising, actually, paying it. Like, I mean, we're all involved with marketing and advertising, in some way, shape or form. But you've been doing nuts and bolts direct marketing digital marketing advertising, that's been your belly wick, how do you feel about these


comments, and how does design mesh with the marketing messaging that you need to do in order to make sure that the design is is well represented through the communication for the funnel. So I I work a lot in the C P G space where everything's a commodity and the dental floss pick that you're selling is exactly the same as the other dental floss picks on the market and. I I screamed for the need for them to think about


the product differently because the design is everything and that is the functional product, right? It's supposed to do 1 thing. And it has to do very well the way that you can change or augment the view of the category or the product you're talking about it's through design. So I think I agree with everything the panels been saying great product sell themselves. Beautiful objects now sell themselves, and I think that the article that you surfaced. From the design engineer, I Akia his honor percent correct in his sentiment in


regards to the importance of design. But I think what he was trying to say was that the the masses of are the millions of dollars that are being spent in media could be reappropriated to design, and I think that's a 0 percent, correct. I'll take the bell. Take that concept. 1 step further. In advertising in general in an era where really contagious content can spread almost that. Well, I think media dollars need to be reappropriated to production dollars. What we're doing right now is seeing very very low


production value, and and and people spending lots of money trying to get it in front like the wrong. Message in front of people go out and create a really great awesome message. And then put it into a place where everyone can share it for free, and let the awesome content that you've created do the exact same thing. I think the same aesthetic are the same principle for design that you would do for the product can be applied to marketing and advertising. I'll give you an example. There was a. There's a a series of content that I'm very fond of from C shoes.


They have this guy named can block who is a is a race car like aficionado, and they go out and create these amazing experiences for this guy to race through. They film them. They shut down like a 1 of the examples as they blocked off all the streets in San Francisco, and that this guy go. Wild through through the city, and they took that 1 piece of content for whatever cost them issued for that day that porter online, and it has been viewed tens of millions of


times because it's an amazing piece of content. They haven't spent a dime on media dollars. They put everything into the production of that piece of content. And I think the same thing applies to the design of products. If you put if you shifted your weight to making a really, really awesome products. You would have to spend less money advertising it in the long run. So you you so okay. I can buy the premise that in that a lot of the media dollars that are spent or wasted. And they're not they're not effective anyway. So why not put it into read thinking


reimagining reengineering your product improving the design making it something that's worth talking about. I mean, I can see that working. But does it really replace reach and frequency as a model? It seems to me that there's gotta be a break even point where you still need to get your message out to the right people at the right time, the right amount of times in order for somebody to pay attention to you and to see while this really is a great design row. This is really cool with it seems to me that there's no


replacing reach and frequency in. Am I am I right or am? I wrong about that. Now, I think you're you're absolutely right. There's the is always going to need to be a mix. But I would argue that you could you could spend less on reach and frequency if you had a better product. I completely agree. I mean, you know. Yeah. I agree. You said this Bob, I think on the show or untrue raw for me with it that that advertising at some level is a tax on the unremarkable. And I think that's really what what we're seeing here. Right. That that if you make a disproportionately that line, that's amazing line. You know, that


that that if you if you make a disproportionately good product, then you have to advertise less because your customers, become volunteer marketers. That that's that's the idea. Right. That the challenge there while that is manifestly true. Is that to Bob's point? It takes longer to work because the only way that happens is for a customer to consume were interact with the product in question. And then they tell somebody who then has to become a new customer. So it can totally work just that we don't typically rely solely on


word of mouth because the elongated successor rising. It requires to actually make it happen. So what happens in the real world? Is you take a product. Hopefully, it's good. Maybe you can make it better. And then you amplify its drinks with some sort of reaching frequency and hopefully the 2 points meet in the middle. You know, there's some there's a point that I've been making on the show for quite a while. And it comes down to whether or not a new brand in an introductory brand. Is is. Is benefited from doing reach and


frequency as opposed to creating word of mouth thing creating great experiences. I because there's no doubt that advertising traditional reach and frequency works for McDonald's. You know that it works for gyco. Because either a big brand that you recognize and when you see an ad. It reminds you that they exist in that they still have, you know, 15 minutes or less can save you 1500 dollars in your car showrooms, or whatever it is. You know, it reminds you of these messages, but


a new brand is less served by the region. Frequency message mostly because they don't have the money to spend to get that kind of reach and frequency that a McDonald's can deliver. And it doesn't seem to be as effective. So in in that way, I think that this guy's spot on if we're talking about, you know, introductory brands new brands that don't have any mental capital. No mindshare out there. Yeah. I can see how designed totally shift the needle. I'm less. Sure that it has


an a noticeable impact for your average toothpaste brand. And now it's a slug it may. It may have a slight impact. I give you I'll give you 2 examples 1 wellbeing revert referenced the geiko, I could have easily gotten my insurance from Geico. But I saw a very slick advertisement in Instagram for a company called lemonade. And I do all of my insurance now through this company called lemonade, and it's literally 5 dollars a month on it. And it's it's b it's


a beautiful interface. It's easy. It's super slick and there's no friction whatsoever. As opposed to me trying to call gyco and spend 15 I mean, I literally got my all my insurance that up in under 5 minutes rather than taking 15 minutes to save. What are are taking whatever it is to take say 15 percent on my car insurance. I literally did this through my phone while I was in a restroom. So like, it's it's that that design in that regard. So now, we know you do when Homer toilet


[laughter]. [laughter]. The gosh. What was the second 1? I was going to give you were talking about this sign interphase. This is my [laughter]. Eliminate was the perfect example in response the gyco. So I think you can when you're talking about upstarts if you live in New York City, you see things like casper, you see things like seamless and their advertising is very simple.


It's very beautiful. It's easy to digest. And you just feel a warmth and and an appreciation for there's a brand coming through it. And and when you're talking about there's upstarts the design is what's going to lure you into it in the first place, and that makes it a little bit more palatable to to jump into something that feels may be foreign if you're if you're not in the market for a box -able mattress, you know. Well, moving on an interesting study of read this week seems to suggest that Email which


overall is still a pretty high priority activity in business. I think all of us can attest to the fact that he mailed plays a big part of our lives on a daily basis. It's not as high a priority for mobile users, though, which I found be quite surprising, which for Email marketers is pretty troubling news, especially if you're communicating time sensitive information, you want somebody to act quickly on an offer. You have something that has become an expiration date on it. So what does this mean for the tactic of


reaching mobile audiences, Colin? I mean, do we have to shift and change everything that we're doing or is this less of a concern for you as an Email market or what's your take? It's it's I wouldn't say it's concerning. I'm probably either the least or most qualified person to talk about the subject, and I'll tell you why. I despise Email yet. It's 1 of the things that I do for for work. If you were to sit in a meeting with anyone from my team, they would


just be tackling at the fact that I'm answering this question because if you whenever I open up, my computer and projected onto a screen, they see that I have over 77000 unopened emails in my inbox. And so e E mail for me, it's your point is like if you if you want to reach me, and you to do if you want to do something important for me are with me. It's it's a text. It's in something like slack. It's in trouble. Oh, it's an Asana. I'm I'm I'm less focused on Email for me


Email as like a CYA technology cover your ass. It's a paper trail simmered slowly the mimeograph back in the day. Technology that move projects and businesses forward have migrated substantially and last couple of years. And I I just need a couple of them. I think the biggest issue that I have with Email when it comes to businesses is just the the pure lack of etiquette. That's understood for for the platform. I can't tell you the number e mails. I get with a subject line has absolute 0 to do with


the content. That's associated with it. I don't know if it's slightly because they're trying to make things. Like click bait or or what it is. But the like the the actual act of Email has become so spammy that I've shifted my focus. Now, the things that actually make me more productive as a person. Whether that's picking up the phone and calling somebody or using the other methods of foot. This is this is not necessarily about Email in general because all these things that you're saying, you're very very true about


the problems with the Email. I think specifically this study was talking about the fact that marketing, no, they were talking about mobile Email that when when guests owners are on mobile devices, Email becomes a lot less of a priority for them. And you know, they they may browse their Email subject lines. But they usually save things for later when they can get on a desktop thinking. Do it properly or whatever I mean, I I don't understand these people. I do everything on my phone. I'm


constantly doing everything. But I'm assuming this is what's going on. And you know that presents a big challenge for marketers. We thought it was about mobile optimization. But it seems like consumers or less interested in reading any kind of marketing messaging via their mobile device at all and more likely to respond to that. That's true though. Bob, I yeah. That's what I remember. I mean, we have to remember that that on your computer. You're not getting push notifications. At


least not very often people have messages set up on their laptop. But most do not whereas on your phone. You're getting push notifications potentially from social media, but certainly from from texting SMS and we've been moving a lot of our clients away from Email at night exclusively. But but moving some messaging from Email to SMS in and texting with what we have observed in their data on this is why can't put my finger on it right now is that consumers previous wariness


about branded SMS here in the United States is is fading away. As long as you're sending things that have that have relevancy that are on time that aren't just, you know, straight span and Parisian that astronomically that is a lot higher than it was a couple of years ago and the open rate differences ridiculous right average open rate for an e mails at 18 points. Now average open rate for a text is 91 percent. Right. But we're we're still talking about a Brooke a completely permission based platform when you're talking about anything to do with with


text messaging because I if it's unsolicited it becomes a major intrusion. Whereas with Email we still get away with doing unsolicited emails in having quite a lot of success with them. Don't we? Anybody thought about the second part? I mean, yet people still send unsolicited Email. Sure, they're not supposed to do for number reason while they wouldn't have otherwise. But but I'm not sure I'm not sure metric we can say that people are getting having the same kind of success. They once did. Well, there's


certainly not getting the same kind of success. They once did. But this is the same argument. We we have every time we talk about any kind of direct marketing, the we can say that nobody wants your direct mail package, and that response rates or point 0 1 percent. But you sit in London. No. Yeah. Just take 1. It just takes that 1 who responds to it. It's it's a game of numbers yet. Idiom imail out a 0 pieces, you're going to get some kind of response and it works so 1


do it. Is that isn't isn't this kind of pitting of Email against text messaging? Just a a an example of kind of something being a little bit shiny and new the idea that that brands can reach out to us via text message or that they will or that will accept it means, and there are fewer brands doing it means that they're more successful. But as more and more brands jump on that bandwagon. It's just going to become like Email, and we're going to hold are those guys. I know exactly what you're saying. But I hope not what what were seen is that with the smart brands are doing is thinking


about what what messages are we sending that really don't need a lot of back and forth that are purely transactional or alert status kinda things. And and can you do that effectively an SMS to break through the inbox clutter is the same wa reason why some brands are finally starting to figure out Facebook messenger now and doing some interesting transactional driven your exchanges there as well. I hope it doesn't just become lemme lemme lemme send you a text message of our stupid newsletter. Because I don't think that's going to work, and I don't think consumers will tolerate it. But if it's a hey your


package had shipped. I'd just as soon get a tax that an Email because I actually see it on my phone. I might not see it in my inbox. Yeah. I hope so I just don't have faith in any of us were the listeners. I understand I understand entirely. I I may I may be the only person on along the entire planet who's still enjoys Email Email is my brain, you know, because it's like I've worked out a us a use it as a power user uses it. I mean, I employ flag. So that I never


have stuff go into the ether a use apple mail because apple Mel allows me to search the entire database, not just the folders. So I can find anything at any time. I don't have to. You know, go through in file, emails and certain folders. Because if I remember it I can find it. It's easy. You know, I I love the Email. I have no problem with it. I do it entirely on my mobile device this whole conversation, quite frankly, baffles me, I I guess this is what Saturday


average consumer. I I've got I've got a 20 year old and 17. All right. It's a great RND lab. The 1 thing they have no interest in what so ever. Is email. The only reason my daughter has an Email address is because our university makes her have 1. Yeah. We we talk about this over and over again and yet every single 1 of these teens to 20 year olds during college eventually going to the workplace, and they adopt Email. You know, it's a slight e e mails not going anywhere. It's


part of our lifestyle. It's part of the business world. Yes. There are some tools that help with workflow. I mean in Collin mentioned a whole bunch of them everything from a sonnet is slack. I mean, those types of tools. You know can really help with the communication process, and certainly text messaging is the priority way to get in touch with a friend or somebody who you really need to reach right away. But you know, Email still was the record upon which we, you know, his Collins said CYA cover


your ass. I mean, we do it with this with this document system and it still worked beautifully. I can't see it just being replaced entirely by anything else. Low tech attacks. Mass text messages are interrupted and that by the very nature is going to change what works in tax versus what works in Email. Right. I mean, if the if you ask if you ask me do I want to receive a package updates or do I want to receive a reminder about my doctor's appointment, and I say, yes,


I've asked for that. That's a there's a value to that to me. So when I get that text message, I go. Oh, great. But if you hit me with a text message while in the middle of the gain telling me that I've got 24 hours to hit some sale or bison special product at a special price. You're going on my black lab. I mean end of discussion. I I'd I don't want that. And I don't think most people do. Whereas in Email, you can send me that stuff because emails not interrupted. I prioritize it the reason I think open rates are so low is


because a lot of people just let it sit there, and I do this. I let things that are not important that don't need to be open right now during the workday, sit my Email box. And then sometimes at the end of the day, or when I have a break, I might go back and open the ones that are interesting and toss out the ones that analysis, and this is so insightful my committed society, I think this is the heart of the issue that if you if you need to get it out right away. And you have the permission text messaging makes the most sense on a mobile device. I mean, it makes the most sense for reaching out to


your your consumers or to your business partners. But when it comes to a non times that time-sensitive message on a per message without permission. Yeah. Absolutely Email is still the best tool to use because you can prioritize you can say this is not something I'm interested in right now. This is something that I can easily do eat or this is something I want to save to respond to later it gives you those options, and I can see that balanced playing a part in this. Well, I'm going to move onto the final


topic because it's near and dear to our hearts here. J Seth Godin officially proclaimed podcasting as the new blogging this week thereby making it official. There are too many damn podcasts and considering the saturation level. Jay. Is it still worth starting a new podcast today? Are you recommending it to your clients? Are you actively creating podcast for them? What's your take on this? It's a tricky question. I think Seth is.


Incorrect suggested that podcasting is the new blogging for a couple of reasons it podcasting at its best has a a usage hurdle that blogging. Simply does it not for the creator. But for the consumer writer to read a blog post, I have to have a browser. To listen to a podcast. I have to have an app after be able to find the podcast at the download the podcast. And then spend somewhere between 15 and 60 minutes. Listening to it. Which is a lot bigger commit argument. Wait a minute. That's not exactly true because I can go to my browser


and go to the website of almost any podcast and listen to it right through the browser the same way. I can't imagine a true. That is true. But only about 30 percent of podcasts or listen to Ana I in that way. Now, so more and more. You're seeing podcasts obviously through apps now through the car things like that. So, but, but I think we can agree that it is lit podcasting is a little trickier for consumers than than read a blog post. So I don't I don't think the equivalency argument that Seth makes his is entirely accurate. However, podcasting does


have some advantages of blogging as well. I mean has a level of intimacy that that blogging can't match, you know, there's no there's no replacement for talking into somebody's head for an hour a week. It has some some great subscription opportunities now. Right. When you when you get podcasts, and after the vote heated up every week, it's kind of like what we used to have with feed when we had actual RSS speeders like we don't really use those anymore. But but so we've got that. I think the issue though, is there are a total podcasts it in the advice that we give clients. And even when we start


new podcast convince a convert is you have to find. You have to find a hole in the market. Here's exactly the words. I say, Bob. I say. The only way you can start a podcast today. Is if your show will be some people's favorite podcast in the world. So unless you know, who those people are, and what podcast they're going to stop listening to in order to listen to yours don't start 1. If you have a really interesting idea in a really specific target audience. I think you can still be 6 a success with a about gas started today,


but this idea of just turn on the microphone. It's just really hard to break through at this point. You know, I I take a different tack is just a little bit different tack than I talked to clients about podcasting. Because when it comes to creating a podcast, I think everybody still thinks it's a radio show in, you know, it's it's easy to make that misdiagnosis that misperception that somehow this is a radio show because it sounds like a radio show, and because the radio show radio shows are judged on


how many listeners you actually get into the funnel. And for me. I'm always like how many people you really need to reach. Because that's all that matters. It doesn't matter. Whether or not your podcast breaks through if your objective is to reach these 15 20 donors who are you know, it's like micro targeting approach. But I think that's where you had the same thing a different way. Right. Exactly. But but for me when I'm


saying when I'm talking about podcasting. I'm saying that's the true value of podcasting. It's it's not about creating some kind of audience or breaking through. It's always about reaching out to your micro audiences. Now, if you wanna be a big time podcast her and create a radio show and have something to compete against the MPR suit me I entries into this space. I mean, fine. Do it. But I mean, I built the success of this show based on the premise that, you know, 11 percent of the marketing population may eventually


listened to my show, and, you know, quite frankly, that's not a very big number. I mean, there's a lot of people in marketing and advertising, but it's it's not nearly the numbers that are gonna be listening to all things considered when it comes to podcasting. So. You know for me. I it it feels a little like blogging because of that because blogging was always built on these micro audiences with a few standouts who had general audiences. So I'm not necessarily


disagreeing with him. I think that there are elements of. Of the new blogging in place. What I'm concerned about is that just like blogging it be it'll become quickly saturated in. They'll just be some that will go cooperating. You know, have lots and lots of us in her arms are readers, and it's just like the rest of us will be drowned out in the noise as opposed to actually having any effect like we once did Jeremic, you're gonna say something. Yeah. Well, I so


I agree with most everything that's been said so far except that. I want to challenge you on the I really disagree with the blogging metaphor up podcasting isn't going to boost your SEO drive people to your website the same way that blogging did. I mean, I think there were a lot of other. Well, a positives to blogging that went alongside why people would do it. But but podcasting is more like developing a television series than blogging. And you prove it every episode because you have a


format, which is what's required and podcast. Requires a you can't just be an insightful writer, you need to be a you need to be a good performer. You need to be able to handle the technical aspects of recording mixing and editing. Great audio and you need to consistently produce on a schedule more an and you need to come up with either a format or a story that is going to actually power. We got her week after week of episodes, and that's just radically different than you make it sound, exactly. Like the


marketing you make it sound, exactly. Like the slog. But it is [laughter]. [laughter]. But it's skirting that I'm episode 350 so I know exactly what you may need that set that said, right? I think if if we step away from the idea of brands as a creator, I am extremely bullish on podcasts. I mean, I see the same energy and opportunity in the podcast space that I saw in indie film back in the mid to late nineties. So I think


it's a very exciting space for creators. I'm not sure that if your reason for getting into podcasting is to market something that it's maybe quite as fertile space were good for a good point. There Colin any last thoughts on this subject. I mean, what do you think about podcasting? Is it the new blogging, or is it something that is completely different and still valuable to brands some what's your what's your take? I think it's extremely valuable. I I view it as the upgrade


of the blog, which might be countered to what the rest of the panel said. But by my take on it is you have a layer of intimacy that comes from the human voice, and in some instances seeing the person who's sharing the information with you that you can't get from the word now from the from 12 point Helvetica type on a glowing screen. So I think that there's I'm very bullish on a demeaning them. I point a lot of my clients in this direction because I think you're reaching a certain demographic that's


very difficult to reach otherwise at least in the United States, and you can be very very specific about the content that you align with and know that it's a safe space for your for your brand to be. So I I think from a branding sample, maybe not for a podcast her. But from a marketing and advertising standpoint, it's a it's a great medium to to be associated with. Well with that it's time for the Advil 5, but before we get to that segment of the show. I do wanna take this quick opportunity to thank my guests again and


allow them to each do a shameless plug starting with Jay Baer, and I know he has a big plug you. She can find him at convince and So tell us J tell us about your book, go ahead [laughter]. Thanks, bob. Your brand new book called talk triggers, the complete guide to creating customers with word of mouth written with my dear friend, Daniel a lemon. It's a it's a step-by-step manual for how some of the things we talked about here on the show today. Do something different and operations of your business. That gets your customers


talking in the mistake that we make I think in business too often as we assume that competency creates conversation that being a good company will cause word of mouth, but that doesn't really happen. At what what nobody ever says is. Hey, let me tell you about this perfectly adequate experience. I just had we need to do something a little different. And that's what this book is all about a talk trigger a gives you that opportunity to get your customers talking to build your business accordingly. It's in all the places you can get books in it talk Fantastic awesome.


Yeah. Definitely check out. Jay's book is a great writer. I still quote, the intro into 1 of your books all the time. So. Next up, Colin Guam. I dunno where you where you can find these days. He's kind of in transition got big news coming up, but tell us what's going on in your world. What would you like to promote? I'm actually working with an amazing company right now, called Charlotte's web. At say, a d company out of Colorado, and they're gonna be doing inactivation out in Los Angeles


earned the Palm Springs area. Actually sip. You're out that way. Go check out wellspring. They're gonna have an amazing experience in the booth as well as an after party on Saturday night out in the desert by it's gonna be a very awesome kind of celebratory way to communicate to people who have overcome a lot of the different physical issues that you might face through the power of the botanical and encourage anyone who's done at areas. A swing buying come out. And check it out.


Yeah. That's really cool. I'm glad that you mentioned that because it's just like, I I wasn't sure. From our talk with another could tell people about it. I'm glad that you got a chance to let everybody know about what you're doing. And finally, Mike Manila, you can find him at campfire That's the home of his fantastic shop, it's doing some amazing creative work digital work. Content work in experiential work. Tell us what's going on in your world. Mike, what would you like to promote? We are


keeping busy at campfire. So definitely go to campfire And check it out and get in touch. If if that looks interesting to you, I have a I have something to promote that I'm not allowed to completely reveal. But I have a personal project coming up a just in time for Halloween, which I'm very excited about so maybe look me up on Twitter at Mike Menello, and I'll be able to announce more once it's been officially made public


who gave very mysterious, but sounds also. Definitely check that out. And as for me for more information about me or the show visit vote being There you can find the complete show archive. You can find out how to consult with me, you can even find out how to advertise on the program. So check it all out at the being And don't forget we now have transcription services. Thanks to transcribe Go to transcribe cast, and you can get a special discount off your first


transcription. Check him out there. A great sponsor. We love them transcribed coast. And now it's time for the ad fell 5 or rundown of the lowest moments in advertising marketing and public relations from the last week. And I stopped. You know, Colin Connie west, do we need to say more had lunch with the president this past week. We're in the midst of his ranting, he credited Trump for inspiring. The Adidas or ATI dos depending on where you


are in the world contract. For his easy brand. Not I don't know about you. But considering the fact that the on the other side when Nike was seen as doing something to liberal people were burning shoes, I have a feeling that Adidas has got to be completely terrified that. The exact same thing is gonna happen. If words start spreading about the fact that he actually did this and said that Trump is responsible for inspiring him to get the Adidas contract.


Especially when you see how ugly that new us. He's our yet. The the entire somebody said he's smirking geniuses. Yeah. They both of them are marketing geniuses, though, they know how to control the media. I mean, both of them are for whatever reason unassailable, and no matter how ridiculous they get. So I I'm I'm clearly doing something wrong. I should be taking a note from either 1 of them [laughter]. Don't say that say thought so


[laughter]. I kinda feel like Conway is banksy, but without anything to say [laughter]. I've had a bad analogy Bill. Simmons said it best when he said the trouble with Conti as a genius. But he knows it [laughter]. I think I'd probably pretty much sums it up. Well, when you leave your decade old social network just lying around there's bound to be troubled Jay, which is what Google found out the hard way after they discovered. Data breaches in the dorm and Google plus


platform, which finally for simply shut the whole thing down instead of fixing the problems. So no, more Google plus size [laughter]. I mean, if you're running like, a digital crack house like that's gonna happen [laughter]. Left on the corner. But some day people are going to move in her undesirable. But here's the part that I thought was amazing, Bob. I wasn't in the article you share? But it's another 1 I saw on on 1 of the trades and add weaker at age or somebody who had announced that they Google plus with shutting


down and the and the the article about the Google, plus his demise had 1600 social media shares. And I was like man if they could have gotten those kind of shares maybe they wouldn't have to shut down to begin with like their obituary was the most shared thing ever about Google. Plus, which I think is a really sad and medical commentary. The irony the irony. Unfortunately, Google plus was the favorite in the dead pool. So the payout just stunk [laughter]. Ya went off at


when I wanted to favorite right [laughter]. So direct to consumer was all the rage until recently. Then suddenly after people started examining the direct to consumer space. These fledging brands realized it's impossible to stay profitable in the face of competition using these tactics. Meaning it seems like every single DTAC brand eventually goes back to retail brand type actions, Colin I mean, it's just like I


don't understand. It was supposed to be everybody was supposed to be able to go direct to consumers, and it will be fine. Now, everybody's using traditional retail tactics. And that's the only way to scale this and make money was D T see just a complete sham or is this just poor marketing management as they've grown. I think it's a combination of things the company I'm working with right now. Charlotte's web has a very successful each EC side of the business. But I think Yeltsin he to take into account that you need


to be an expert at supply chain, logistics. You need to understand the the temporal. Consumer you need to understand like the financial holdings of the company have to be, you know, in the in alignment, so that you can actually move at that speed. So there's a lot of different things you need to be able to take into account. And when you just sell in big bulk to a retailer, it takes a lot of that weight off of the company. So there's there's 2 ways of looking at it 1 it streamlines your business able to just sell


to reach on have them worry about all the you know, returns and all the rest of the stuff. But if you have a really take connection with your consumer there's nothing that's going to replace that 1 to 1 relationship and data associated with it is huge. So I also I I would opt to say that if you can make the D T C side of your business work. It's gonna be a headache. It's going to be hard. But it's gonna be worth in the long run. And I've got 1 word for everybody out there. Apple I mean, apple is a very successful D T C business. I mean, they do a lot of the do some


retail partnerships. But for the most part, it's all D T C. And I think that that shows that when you do exactly what you're saying, Colin when you manager supply chain you do quite well on your own. Well, Amazon got kudos for raising wages for warehouse way workers, Mike. I mean, if they had this big PR crisis going on saying that they were under paying their workers. And so they solve their PR crisis. They gave everybody arrays and everybody was happy until the workers discovered. The


company would also be ending stock grants and monthly bonuses. Meaning most of the workers would probably be end earning much less than they were before the race. So Amazon back in the dog house. I wish they were back in the dog house. I just think people aren't gonna get riled up about it so long as they keep buying cheap stuff from Amazon. I know that's very cynical. But I think it's true. It's probably very true. And finally, we mentioned Bank CBS world was enamored as well. With the


banks. He's little shredder. Prank worry shredded 1 of his own artwork pieces after it was sold for 1 point 4000000 dollars. But the world has already co opted the effort in an endless parade of branding efforts from Perrier to McDonald's. I, you know, Jay do people. Do not understand what that whole shredding thing was about. I mean, it's it's like the anti-capitalism any corporate America anti commercialism message that


was clear in shredding his own artwork after it sold. It you you think that brands would have caught on that. Maybe this is not a good idea to associate our brand with a hat. It was proud of the of the ones that were cited an article the 1 that might have had the best. Look and feel the best would've of aesthetic with ironically McDonald's, and I can imagine banksy thinking, I I did all this just so that McDonalds would have an Instagram photo


to post edit, it feels a little bit counter to the spirit of the act, and and not to mention the fact we talk about this in the book as well. I mean same as lame, Bob. Like if [laughter] if your content strategy requires you to to ape and mimic pop culture to that degree. I don't think you really have a strategy. Right. And and you're certainly not going to supersede the original. I I just I'm not a big, you know, it, maybe I'm I'm not the social consultant, I should be. But it, but


I'm just not a big hashtag zeitgeist writer. I just feel like it's lazy mirrors, and that would've core social media strategy that so many people were espousing though, back when oriented their doc on me. It's called real time marketing, and it says orgy race old RTM Beatty, personally, I was looking through the the the post that I just think the only thing worse than bad dad jokes or bad brand jokes were all all that's a book that he's written.


August Augie Ray is so funny because he always compares real time marketing to Russian roulette you pull the trigger on your head over and over and over again until eventually you do something that embarrasses the heck out of yourself. I think that's pretty much the way that I look at or anything to do with real time marketing, we'll have something to add to this list. Or just wanna discuss it comment online. Use the hashtag Advil 5. That's pound add fell in the number 5. And that does it for this week's show if you'd like to subscribe to this


podcast, visit our website at the bean and click on the subscribe link if you're not tunes listener, we've also provided a direct link to the genes music store or just search for the being cast in the podcast directory of vitamins, and whichever podcast directory you use when you subscribe, please leave us a review got a comment have a question. We'd love to hear from you just send your emails to being cast a gmaiLcom opening theme was performed by Joe cyber closing theme by C


Jack's thanks for listening. I'm Bob nork. We'll be back again next week. Hope you'll join us, then


she's exactly.


Cool beans.