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BeanCast 515 Transcript

BeanCast 515: Tronc It

Date: 08-Oct-2018

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00:00:30 cast for up to 25 percent off. That's transcribe Episode 500 15 trunk it.


For Monday, October 2018 it's time for this week's edition of the being cast a weekly discussion about the news in issues. Facing marketers today? I'm your host, Bob. Thanks for joining us. We hear about purpose driven marketing constantly means days and the successes are typically spectacular, but


his purpose truly the panacea. That everyone says that it is or is it more about opportunism in social pander tonight. We'll discuss also whether billable hours of bad for relationships. Why 4 square is getting another 33000000 the power of custom magazines. Plus this week's fell 5 that's the lineup. Lets me. Tonight's, pat.


Thanks for joining us for this week's been cast. I'm Bob nork in with me on the panel for this evening. We start with the founder and principal of marketing consultancy future, fourth, Mr. Dave, Delaney, thi-, Dave. Hey, thanks for having me back. My pleasure now. Also with us. We have the Admiral the Admiral himself and founder of innovation consultancy, the HMS. Beagle. Author speaker, Mr. Joseph Jaffe, Joe welcome back, man.


Maty it rolls off the tongue doesn't it does not [laughter] [laughter]. And finally from Viacom we welcome back the executive vice president of audience science, Mr. Julian zilber brand thanks for have me back. Bob. I think you could start calling me to lift tenant [laughter]. I'm not giving military titles to anybody else on the show


[laughter]. Well, let's jump right in and talk about purpose driven marketing. You can't throw a rock in agency. These days without hitting someone touting the benefits of purpose driven marketing customers want to do business with brands that are guided by a higher calling or so the Trump goes so. Dave are seeing purpose driven tactics for marketing always delivering benefits, or is this mostly another form of brand opportunism. What's your take on the whole


purpose driven? Crazy. That's been going on for God last 10 years now. I think it's great first of all I mean, it has converted me to be a become a loyal customer for certain brands, just because they've done interesting campaigns. And and things that actually, you know, were were important to me like, for example, I look at CBS who come out tobacco products, you know, and and by doing that and as of as performed a former smoker on that's


something that's really near and dear to my heart. And so, you know, just seeing that alone and the campaign that that they did around that was really impactful. And so for me, I'm seeing I'm seeing it happen, more and more. It seems these days of there seems to be a lot more happening with it. But yeah, I find it really is effective. To agree with this show. I mean, do you think that it's always a good thing to do purpose driven marketing because you know, I I love the example of the CVS


getting CVS getting rid of cigarettes. It's such a powerful statement about were a health company and yet at the same time how easy it is to get rid of a product. That's in a dying industry. That's vilified. It seems more about opportunism. And then maybe that's not a bad thing. But it seems less about purpose and more about jumping on the bandwagon in finding those critical strategic decisions to make that make you look good in the social media's


the social media discussion. Yeah. I mean, look I. I love this topic. Because I always look at this this Renee song, so this embracing of purpose based marketing, and and I say festival when you know, when wasn't this important when wasn't an important to have a purpose. How is it possible that companies are 70 discovering they purpose? You know, the reason for being there there why I mean, I even ride


I in in my new book. I right. You know, let's stop saying start with why and rather start with w t f because it's it's it's it's such an amorphous and open ended type of a way to go into a conversation. I think instead of talking about purpose we need to walk the talk. And so I love the I love the example of serious. Absolutely love it. I I'm not sure though, whether whether do we define that as purpose based marketing or do which is define it as a


company. I mean, unlike what you said, sometimes we're looking at companies that are maybe mature stagnating looking for a bit of invigoration. And so they kind of tuned to this kind of program. And I I love CBS what they did for all the right reasons. I just think that's kind of bravery. And I think it's about taking a stand. And look in. If we want to call the purpose. Let's colder purpose. But if CBS didn't have a purpose of Admiral added up into me, that's nothing more than just a 1 off


campaign and will be short-lived firm emulate, but yoga Patagonia to like in December Patagonia sued Donald Trump [laughter]. Because of his moves to remove protections of 2 national monuments in Utai that was like the grand staircase in the bears, the bears ears the national monuments, and so he tried. So during that time, if you remember Patagonia, actually rebranding their word, the re skin their landing page their home page of their website was big black page with big wiped, bold, letters and said the president's stole your


land and went. Very impactful doesn't that feel a little bit opportunistic versus really purposeful. I mean, I think to some degree it has to be and it is a little bit of both. I think today's you know, there's been enough research showed at this point that today's consumer needs to have some kind of social society social impact for you to have a connection to a brand that I use the term pretty loosely because no


how connected are you to every single possible brand at the same time the opportunity to take advantage of that kind of approach and use that for tactical reasons has to exist as well. And it, and it's it's to be somewhat of a healthy mix of both. Absolutely. I don't think it's a way. Like, I don't think if they're doing it in a sneaky way only to capitalize on that. Then I think they're going to get dinged for that. But if it's something that's near and dear to their hearts in the soul of the company itself. That makes complete


sense. And so by doing that and taking that stand. Then you get your most passionate consumers and nuke new customers as well. As a result of that. I read there was a purpose study by Cohen porter. Novelli read about. And the quote was 78 percent of Americans believe companies must do more than just make money. They must positively impacts society as well and 2 thirds of consumers say they would switch to a product from a purpose driven company. And 68 percent say they would feel more willing to share content with their social networks. From


purpose. Driven companies lied and door on coal, but old's pretty impact I cold bowl. And all of that. I mean, I I know that I know that people say in studies that we want a purpose driven company. We want a company that socially responsible. But when it comes down to making a decision to buy you. You you go for the product that looks good that your friends have that you find his cheapest. I mean, the same drivers still apply. You just have the added benefit of saying, and they


they cure cancer or yes, they're giving shoes the kids in Africa. You know, it's it's it. It doesn't seem. Well, he's truly up to if you have 2 products in your in your hand at a store and you've got 2 different brands that compete with 1 another and 1. You are aware of makes a big stand about something you care about that's consistent with the brand itself. Wouldn't you decide to purchase that if if it was a couple of bucks higher? I would I would 1000 percent agree with that statement. And I think the difference, and I and I'll


dental just stayed at 2 different white 1 is maybe the problem is the phrase purpose marketing ride, I bet would marketing this has to be bigger in this case than marketing, it has to be the entire companies at and and it has to be completely transparent because you don't want to see a company that says we're taking a stand and eliminating cigarette, you know, selling cigarettes. And then at the same time finding out that they're not paying minimum wage or they're paying gloveman railway. I find the


most companies most companies that make a stand. These days are making very easy stand very populous stands, you know, things that they know that their audience is going to come right along with them on. And it's not really making a kind of stand that you would associate with having a purpose. I mean, sometimes purpose lead you to make decisions that are not necessarily good for your bottom line. You know, and it's for me. That seems like the bigger story when it comes the purpose. Maybe it's maybe it


comes down to. We're just using the word purpose for the wrong types of campaigns. You know that purpose is more about having of. A lighthouse within your organization that shines in 1 direction and shows you exactly where you're supposed to be going. So that you don't land on the rocks. Look we've all worked in corporate America in 1 form or the other on some level. The other. I don't know how many companies truly have a soul [laughter]. Of course it exists. So I don't


want to categorize every company that way. But I would say if you look at the vast majority of companies, you know, to say that they have generally have soul. I think is a lot to ask. Now, are there tactical reasons ineffective reasons for which you might have a soul and something that you stand for as an organization, of course, it's there, and if that aligned to some kind of purpose that can be used to make you more money, then by all means do it. But I think, but I think to assume to some degree that the heart and soul of


most corporations truly stand for something meaningful. I think that's probably in the minority. Now, if you get the rest of the majority might then choose to use certain. Social things so socially engineered things to make decisions about how they're going to communicate with their consumers. That's a little different. And I think when we start inflating truly having a purpose as an organization and using something for tactical reasons, I think we'll find that


most of the time it's for tactical reasons as opposed to really true so rhymes I I believed it really to do this like to do this most effectively, I you've got new your audience, right? And you've got to be able to find a way to help them or or to show your support with them. In a meaningful way. You've got to find ways to remind your customers of the values you share as well. Right. And there's a company called rippled. I read about. Which did a good job with that? They actually have an annual our pro I think it's called our our progress report or some are our


progress your impact annual report, and it shares information about how they saved carbon savings water reduction sugar avoidance and stuff like that. But I think the third main point about this is having our employees on board with it as well. And that brings me to REI another outdoor company strangely enough, which if you guys remember in 2015 they did the black Friday event where they closed all of their stores a 43 locations for black Friday. They closed it. And they had this campaign called opt


outside that use the hashtag opt outside. And 12000 employees were encouraged to go outside and do something and have fun. And and so they closed the store on presumably the most, you know, the the most profitable day of the year. Black Friday it closed other stores and they earned. 2 point 7000000000 PR impressions 1 point 4000000 social media mentions. And they were able to persuade 1000000 people to get outside. And they saw significant increase in new membership. So it actually look. Did pay off for them as


well. So I did. Yeah. Do we know at I don't know this. Are they now forever close on black Friday? Yeah. That's a good question. And I don't know the answer to that. They did do something the following year in 2016. But I don't remember exactly the specifics of 1 of the employees have with us 1 of the problems. I have with this use of purpose. So willy nilly to describe these situations is that we're talking about. Doing good as opposed to really having a


purpose. I mean, if a company has a purpose like Patagonia has a purpose. I mean from the beginning of the founding of the company they are been environmentalists. And the the purpose is to. Encourage the enjoyment of the outdoors and preserve the outdoors. And it's just like it's not a cause for them. It's it's a purpose. It's a guiding light in the company whereas making a decision to get rid of cigarettes. I mean, it's like it kind of fits in with your purpose by CVS.


It's it's kind of hard for me to say before that moment, they had a purpose. You know lately. And I think it's back to a Joe is saying we'd like to confusion over because I read cause driven marketing purpose German marketing, and then even like always at brand brand standing as well. Yeah, we're all sorta terms it summarized kind of the same thing in a way. So kind of a little while there's some whether it was dabbled Jude in his his added, which is how many companies have a soul. And I and I thought that was


a brilliant statement because the reality is is no company has a soul because because a company isn't a human accompany isn't an old chemical organism. A company is ultimately in a something incorporated in Delaware or or or a bunch of financial statements. It's the people inside the company, but but going beyond this idea of having a soul there is this idea of you know, you can do good or you can be good. And if you are good you're naturally


going to. And I think 1 of the hardest things in indefens-, and and to kind of cut him a little bit of slap these large corporations, it's really hard to change course, if intact you Trudy do not have a soul, not only in terms of your corporate shell. But even the people inside your company in the boardroom. That's why it's so much easier for you know, I could I could rattle off about 20 startups. The third loves than the bomb passes in the will be parkers and the TOMS, and you know, and


and each 1 of these companies every single 1 of them. Has started out and built a business from the ground up giving back, you know, being good doing good. And that's why it's going to come down to if there's any corporate executives listening. You know, you better believe that consumers tomorrow and the next and the Dow to that will hold 2 products next to each other than they will choose the 1, even if it is the more expensive 1 based on what they perceived to be from a brand that has a soul, and when I used


to run social media for Griffin technology 0 years ago, I would have customers, and I actually had a customer from an apple store have Griffin product in 1 hand and a competitive product in the other hand and actually tweeted me that they bought it because they knew me because we've correspondent on Twitter before 'cause I was the voice and face of the company. So I experienced that first hand so yet. And if you have a soul. Who is it all we know? Let is the purpose always


necessary though. I mean, it's just like, I know we're we're putting forward. These scenarios were 1 group of customers out there in the marketplace. And they're holding to products in their hand and 1 has a purpose 1 dozen which 1 you're going to choose. You know, I don't think that that is always going to be the case. And you know from the standpoint of playing with the purpose driven approach. You also have to take a stand and taking a stand potentially alienates customers. Uh-huh. Yes. Did


I kept hearing so many people complain that they'd go to CVS, and I saw it online or whatever that people would complain that they didn't sell cigarettes anymore. I had friends complained about it. But the fact is that they re branded as more of a health like a pharmacy, which is ultimately what they are. But really focused on CBS health. And so they took a hit, by the way. I mean last I checked. They lost 2000000000 dollars as a result of cutting out tobacco products. So like, they took a major hit. But they they think it's a long play and a very strong


branding played to show that they actually really do care about your health. I think the I think that we're giving them too much credit. You know, because it's like it was only going to be a matter of time before the lawsuits targeted the sellers. You know, it's just like it's not just the tobacco companies who are at fault for promotion of cigarettes. It's also the retail operations that are selling these products. And I think that there is some legal jeopardy involved with it that force them to make that decision. So I I think when you spend multiple billions, I forget, the number was


50 something or something to that effect to buy a whole host of pharmaceuticals that there are other compliance issues that you have to do with that as a retailer, and I think that it is it Audra percent. I'm not saying it is it 100 percent altruistic. But I don't know that it is 100 percent out realistic either. So I don't want to give them too much credit. I don't want to take away credit. But I think that there's a lot of a lot of things that go on when a company CBS invest. Billions and billions of dollars in pharmaceuticals to kind of own the entire health


cycle. And then they turn around and sell cigarettes. There might be an issue just with that. And don't get me wrong. I I agree with you Julian there, and it's just like and don't get me wrong. I'm not anti purpose marketing, I think the purpose marketing has a lot of value when you're trying to. You know, create an image for brand or trying to reimagined who you are in the marketplace. But. At the same time. It's I think that a company needs to look very critically about whether or not they should pursue this particular type of strategy.


Because I don't think that in every case it's a good decision for every single brand to get involved with the purpose driven approach. You know, you may win a few followers or few social mansions and people talk about you online. But it could potentially alienate huge swats of your customer base. And and make a lot of enemies in the process. So I mean, you know, making that decision can't be done lightly, and it can't be treated as a panacea for every brand decision. I mean, wouldn't you agree? Joe? I


mean is this like e d still believe that every company should have a purpose? Well, listen, I mean, they they asked every company has to have a purpose. What purpose? Besides making fiduciary [laughter] decisions that are is interesting as I was listening to you guys talking is this idea of, you know, first of all there's a difference with purpose and in purpose. Vice marketing there's also a difference in this idea of taking a stand. And I think we're


we're citing a lot of examples of companies that have taken a stand, and that doesn't necessarily have to be, you know, purpose based marketing at all, you know, I was thinking of his hair is a purpose based marketing example, which has Nikes endorsement and spawned and and kind of getting behind column cabinet. I mean that is that's think it's a glaring example of opportunism, quite frankly, I mean, I don't see that as being necessarily Nike's taking a quote, unquote, you're


making my point it's a little bit above. It is. But he actually it certainly is. But you know, what I, but it's an interesting example, he is at stake. Sure that I was gonna say, perhaps, let's say sure. But the Nike brand first of all the Nike brand taking a pretty big risk. I think and and second second of being able to stand behind that decision. And and do it in an authentic way. And by will decide this is


this is a position, we're taking I guess you love. I don't see a lover ends on. There's no return. I don't know. I don't see as much risk as you're saying. I mean, it's it's like I see it as being a little bit risky, but it's the kind of risk that a poker player takes when they know that 3 or 3 aces wins 90 percent of the times longer. Put all in on this. I mean, it's it's it's it's a risk in the in the ratio of 51 to 49 based on the current


[laughter]. They they they could have they could have risked alienating. Descent of the country. But the it there's a lot to that. Because I think to some extent you're going to alienate a e A you said Joe, you said something. True. Right. It has a political reality. Right. And if you look at the voters if you look at voters, right? A the numbers in total volume lean left, the the the voting results were right for, you know, obviously, obvious


reasons, and if you're doing the market in and you're looking at it from a political standpoint, you have more people that are leaning in 1 way than the other. And while you are going to alienate a extreme section on 1 side, most aren't gonna bother with the trouble of caring. And so it is a missed, but it's a very calculated. I thought well done and well-taken risk. Oh, jazz at the same time. It's opportunistic while it is risky and says something about Nope. Any goes? It's like every time I


come to the conclusion that it always has to be both. Because at show me a company that's willing to take the financial risk of something standing for something where it's going to severely damage the company. That's when I'll kind of lean in the other direction. Where are we going to move on and talk next about billable hours? And how billable hours may be part of the problem with the relationship building with clients. We'll get to that in just a minute. But first I want to tell you a little bit about our sponsor


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absolutely. The best place to target your next campaign. And we thank them very much for their support of our program. Well, once again, the practice of agencies billing by hours versus by project is being called into question. And once more the ad world is considering the fact that they are woefully incapable of knowing upfront. How many hours each project will take? So Joe 1 of the pluses and minuses to a project fi


approach. I know that project fees is more in your wheel set. And I wanted to find out why you consider that a an approach. That's maybe more desirable. Then going for an hourly building a stroke approach. What's your take? Well, I I I would expand on the idea of project versus you know, this is billable hours. And and I actually think that the I think the industry I'd


like to say, the industry's evolved beyond that. But maybe the best bites say the industry would like to evolve beyond that there are a whole bunch of other ways of thinking about compensation, including a performance based pricing. And I and it's something that I think he can cocaine. Someone gonna say 10 years ago. Does it go which was this idea of value based and deliverable based pricing oil compensation, and then I would add


way way, I would push an advocates is a royalty based and equity based example is being the agency that came up with the Eminem's characters which are believed was TWA. They should be the every day. They should be getting themselves. A big fat royalty check or or or some kind of residuals. You know, this is the equivalent of syndication for those those characters that have not only lived on in advertising, but through the Eminem stole so on and so


forth. So so this is a problem that. We've been talking about in the industry for decades. And and and I think the general consensus is that charging by the hour is an absolute flawed practice, especially when thinking about the highest value. A products like. Account planning was. Planning and and and and the creative function amongst others. Well. Oh, okay. So who you're


there are a lot of different ways that we can approach this that are providing more value to the agency. But from a standpoint of providing value to the client. Why do you feel that having a billable hours approach actually can maybe harm the relationship that you're trying to build with your client? I mean, it seems to me that there needs to be a reason why billable hours continue to be used so prevalent in our industry, and yet they seem to


be so problematic when it comes down to negotiating or reconciling accounts with the client that the there are many reasons, and and I think, you know. The 1 that Radi. I think Well, I I always used to use it do you? Remember the movie we can a Bernie's. Yeah. And and for me that that's kind of what the agency wold has become that you kind of the client walks through the cube maze. And and wants to see all the people working on a business, and they're a couple of dead bodies and someone


stay hand up his sunglasses on just to wave to them. But that's what it's come down to just putting fresh meat or even you know old meat on someone's accountable to justify the spend. But, but there was something in 1 of the source articles that Radi I leapt out at me. And that's this idea of. Why are we punishing and the agency for working quicker? If they can produce the same deliverable and half the time or if they can produce


deliverable in the same time leaving half the time that actually can produce more and deliver more double the ROI. By not changing the way, we compensate we're actually essentially punishing them. Or creating a process that doesn't reward moving quick. And of course, the analogy is know many of these large companies are getting their lunch stolen by the smaller. More nimble more agile and quick moving startups. And I've been saying the exact same thing for 11 years. I've


said that I've had this conversation with client after claim. I mean, it's it's like why should you be punished? If I take too long to do the project, and why should I be punished? If I take too little time to do the project. I mean project is worth what the project is worth Owen. Did you just agree with me? Oh my gosh. Yes. I definitely do if you were here yet. The question is is that the agencies that are looking for the billing hourly billing or is a clients that are comfortable with paying that kind of feet. Well, it comes down to


for from what I understand from talking with people in the agency world is that the the model of billable hours is so intrinsically build into how they they run their business. That they can't get away from it. And the clients have now become a enamored with it as well because it enables them to negotiate down upon you know, how many bodies were putting against a project and how many hours though, those bodies going to be spending doing a project as opposed to.


Really valuing the project and understanding how much this is worth. It's that contagious. I think that the clients have found a reason to adopted and to feel comfortable with it because it's helped them out in their procurement and negotiations. I think a lot of this comes down to comfort, right? I think most when talks about potential performance based building and things of that nature. There are inherent risks with going outside of the


norm. And I think that it's both comfort on both clients part and agency part and not willing to take risks because they think the opportunity to do value based or the opportunity to kind of do what would just suggested M and M's do and and or I should say TWA should've done and get some kind of long-term royalty play. It's a risk. And I think most companies or risk of averse, and if we can get more and more companies that are willing to take some tactical risks. Whether that's on the


client side. Whether that's on the agency side, then you'll see the model begin to. I thought it was interesting. The article to talking about the angle of the pros of it as it applies to the agency itself like internally tracking hours of work involved in different projects and things. I I thought that was that was an interesting sort of positive side of it. But I certainly see agree with you guys on on why it's kind of ridiculous by this. I think the bigger question is would go into a


project bass fee actually improve relationships between agencies and clients, which as we all know where we're at all time low at this point. And there's a lot of acrimony between the 2 parties in most situations. I mean, you know, if you read about it a lot in the news these days, I'll be a feels very taken advantage of because of the whole fee Lasko over the media billing the kickback. So, you know, it's just like a billable


hours. May be part of the problem. But I'm wondering whether or not the the problems run so deep that going to a project based approach really solves nothing when it comes down to improving the relationship between agency in an a an a climate. What will again, we've got a, you know, when we say project, there's gotta be an astronaut and to say and all the other forms of compensation beyond in hours, of course, on all the other ones, you mentioned yapped, I'm just I'm just saying that, but but they are


at a couple of interesting ways. I think first of all I mean, I'll give you just a pistol anytime a jury during my time with evolution. We would go and say the same thing because you know, Bob, we both stand for the same things you, and I we believe in the same things in your sandwich. I it, you know, this is the projects the Eneko yet. You we understand. And that's fine. That's great. But we just talk an approximation of of who's going to be on the business, and what percentage of the time you're gonna be spending on the business,


and and essentially all they need they just they just reverse engineered. And and calculated what the you know, what that billable that average billable rate was that and and so in a in a way, it ended up you either you started a project you ended up getting back to some kind of billable hour equivalent and. The thing that I always think about is. This may be a very bad example to quote, Ilan musk at the moment [laughter]


company would have 30 minutes of Elon Musk's time to pick his brain. And boy, oh boy. Would we like to pick that brain at the moment, you know, and ask him any question and just break bread with him have gloss of wine or 2, and maybe, you know, a mate smoke a joint us South Africans. All hang out [laughter]. Imagine what would you pay for the for that 30 minutes? It will be such an Bernama


coal amount that there's no way any procurement department or or organizational structure O'Donnell guideline in a play. But would be able to tell you it was justified. But ultimately, you know. You will pay. What would you believe that? The that time is worth or that value is. And so all of this stuff goes out the window and it comes down to. I think what you said Bob, which is it does come down to an acute distrust in in


the agency partnership end, or I'm just the ability not to perceive the value that is being provided at being higher than than that, which it's being priced at. I think it's the latter. I really think it's the latter. I think the whole trust thing is way way overblown clients, switch agencies on a regular basis, and it's very rare that I've ever seen. It's because they don't trust their agency. Typically, they're they're switching because they're not doing a good job. Or there's. A


scapegoat reason or whatever it could be any number of reasons, but I very rarely see trust being the issue. I think the reality is is exactly what Joe said, it's not understanding what the value is not providing a agencies not being able to market effectively what their value is. And what they're bringing to the table. And therefore, they don't know a different methodology with which they can charge rebuilding perspective. If you don't understand how to communicate the value of what you're bringing. It's very


hard to charge for it yet. That's exactly what I was thinking too is the background of leg of of whomever's working on the team. Like all of the years of experience that they bring to the table. I mean, those years of experience are worth a lot. And that's something that doesn't probably get factored in Joe, you mentioned that like clients may try to calculate it on their own as you mentioned that is that a common thing that comes up. Well, it's not. I mean, this is just the case with us. It's not too late calculated


on their own. But when you give them the inputs. Right. In a it's like saying, I'm not don't tell me a revenue. Just tell me why your custom accounting your ticket average on you says multiply the 2 together. So you don't have a L. Sorry. Come on. Now. I was I was gonna say so just you know, when it's just. And and it's and it is because of procurement departments coming and saying we just want to know who's working on our business and give us a proclamation. 20


percent of the time with the. Percent of the time. You know without being able to break out what their typical billable hourly rights. Are you end up with a? You know, you end up with a compound. Billable, right. And and they all many many companies, let's say. We're sorry. But we're just not gonna pay. An average or compound billable rate of more than 200 dollars an hour. So to that point when they're when they're asking, you know, asking for those Missouri numbers. I guess I think getting back to the point of like Julie


made about the communication of the weaknesses in part of the agencies marketing itself may be part of that communication should be. You know, we're going to dedicate X percent of time and so on and so forth. But also Joe Jeff he's gonna be working on on that. And Joe brings 25 years of marketing, and and you know, PR and sales to the table the end he's 1 XYZ awards in Britain, this many books, you know, what I mean? So like factoring in that. When you reveal that information of the percentages and things from the agency side


also padding that with with helping the client better understand or the prospect better understand what you are bringing to the table. I mean, we we normally throwing it on us. But it [laughter] at a bag of weed. Whoa. We're going to move on. Everybody wants word of and move on and talk about 4 square getting another 33000000 dollars in funding. Kinda wonder about that not really sure where they're getting those figures for wait. Yeah. But before


we do that. We have to. Pause for just a moment for word from our sponsor, Admiral. I come downstairs my of him. My my mom and dad to see that in a potentially we might lose all lost shop, and we've always had stores growing up. I guess I was just no bubble enjoying my my Jovi music. And I didn't really realize that potentially our house was on the line. We both knew something had


to change. I genuinely family believed in the digital process in getting are gone and seen online. I knew we needed help. And I knew we needed a platform to help get our content scene. And our message heard the first campaign that we engage with Admiral returned 27 times, the ROI I can turn turn back and say, look, look what we've accomplished to learn more about how now lemme and turned his family business into a global retail brand. Visit

00:40:28 cast. That's a D R O L cast. Well, just when you start to question the future marketing growth potential location based data. For a square gets another round of funding of 33000000 dollars. Now, I didn't know the 4 score was 4 square was still a thing. I mean, I knew it was around itin her hill is that it was worth another 33000000. So julian. Innovation and location based efforts


has been stagnating for while of things like privacy concerns in questionable effectiveness have been kind of bandied about his reasons. So does this funding signal renewed energy for the space? M for 4 spur in particular or just more of the same in this particular sector of the marketing world, what's your take on this? I don't think this ushers DNA in any new innovations that will change the game. I do think that school whereas a location based


company, and they're obviously many out their location is in a very relevant and important signal that you could use that makes a lotta sense. And and I think that that's you know, in the age of big data in the age of more companies having data scientists and at the age of war companies being much more tactically aware of all the possible signals that will help them make decisions. This is another opportunity to expand on that. I don't know that


this is a game changer at any level. Obviously. I don't have. You know, an understanding of the inner workings of the company, and what they're trying to do or what they sold into kind of get the extra money. But at the end of the day, I think location has been will continue to be a very relevant important signal for a number of reasons. And I see no reason why there should be further investment and innovation in the space on the other hand. I think you brought up a really good point. Which is there is some question around the privacy concerns around


that 4 squares an interesting thing because in most cases, you're opting in to that scenario. And I think that makes a big difference in the privacy world with the tactic of being able to opt in to passing that that level of data. So does this change the game for them or anybody? I don't think it does. But I do think that there's enough reason for location based companies to still be relevant enough money to be made up the data set and enough reason to continue to invest dare to


innovate. Although again, I don't know how many more kind of innovative things you can do other than passing it potentially faster hoping to optimize your decision-making faster. You know, I was going to say just tacking onto that the you know, when you look into this situation with the funding round 33000000 is a lot of money for me. But in terms of this type of operation at this stage that the rat. It's it's it's it's a stopgap measure to keep them in


business. It's feels like which is not a sign of a trust in my in my eyes. And then the the lead investment company, the lead VC that's funding. This round are leading this round of funding is Simon in ventures and Simon ventures is from the mall fame. I mean, they basically have a real vested interest in having some kind of location based technologies for their particular operations. So I gotta wonder what's really


going on here is this. A vote of confidence. Or is this more about Simon may be trying to do a little PR on their own part? And maybe they see something that we don't I I don't know a day. 1 was let let's consider where the opportunity might make a ton of sense, which is. Globally, potentially in the Asian markets in India and in southeast Asia and other markets where there are less. More mobile and


lessen the way of of privacy concerns and the opportunity to have location as a data point over there might be more valuable than it could be in the US or in Europe where there's a lot of regulation. I'm curious with this all tee because like I've I've been on foursquare since I think since it launched probably I I actually wanted to use dodgeball before they launch foursquare. So that that's dating myself there, and then foursquare made the horrible mix


up branding mistake of of launching swarm, and then confused the hell out of the users because 4 squares on the became sort of a yelp. I guess and then swarm became sort of foursquare. And and it's funny because I actually still use worm from time to time and swarm is basically a a check in app that's owned by foursquare, by the way. So so I wonder like I was coming back from speaking at a conference just a couple of weeks ago and is at an airport with a layover. And so I checked into the airport on swarm and saw that a friend was actually in the


airport, and we missed each other for a second. I joked a message in the like finally found a reason for swarm, and I don't know why I'm still checking in like I am. But so I'm curious to see. And I think I think with the privacy concern certainly in in North America and Europe yet. I think the loyal nerds like us to who may want to play along with with checking in different locations and things I think they're certainly market for that. But I think I think it on a larger scale


that certainly and as I said in North America and Europe with privacy concerns as they are. I'm not so sure that that people are gonna start using a evade. They never were able to harness the power of the. Of of gay modifying. Location so to speak and. And putting that aside for a second knew there was 1 in a byproduct that came out of it, which was that. I mean, I at the time. I was you know, I was I defended the fact that I was


9 oh, my title comes from bog that I was the mayor of the admirals club. No [laughter] at JFK. But like, you know, somebody dethrone me for my club. I was I was back there as quick as you. How would like a change terminals to vital to check in? But but they never they never quite were able to figure out how to harness that that power and babble to tie that to proof of purchase on and ready build on that. But putting that


aside what did happen is that people were creating all of these entries. And so I was at 1 point created a whole syntax for you know, a a 1 20 from. From JFK it to SFO. And and I was creating gay chickens as well. And mitt people were doing the same. And it's bad back end in that whole treasure trove, if you will of these location-based. Mark is that that


developers are using. And that they've. I think have continued to use. And leverage beyond know, the front-end. Manifestation, which is, you know, a bunch of people like like Ivan myself going and check into place, no unity, though, like abroad, the Hebron a community of people together to play along as you said Joe like either you're trying to get become a mirror of location or you're trying to add you're adding tips for places I'm still the first tip on foursquare when you're swarm now when you when you visit


Nashville the airport here. So, you know, it's it's interesting you had this community of people that interacted and that shared tips. And you know, I even did things were like I extracted my K L feed from my foursquare account and embedded it into my into Google earth. And I could do a video walk through in real or not real time. But in a through of locations, I was went to Puerto Rico with my wife. I was able to plug in my my link for my feed and actually look at all the different locations


and play it like a little film. You know, what we're going to what you're talking about or your user benefits which are reserve grade, but they have absolutely no bearing or at least little jarring on the on the brands themselves who were were. I think to some degree that the game of the game affiliation. Part of it certainly kind of jumped the shark. I think it's more functionally relevant, right? That the capability is being built in by vast developers into a number of different


places where the data points can be aggregated in a set and sent to advertisers. For for 1 reason or another. So that they could provide a service to all the other apps makers who are doing what they're doing. I think I could see a use case there were they provide a functional business to business purpose that they share, and that's a whole different story. And that's a different business model that has a much more long term sustaining business. Maybe not. As big as the concept of


what gamification could've been and what everybody thought the company would be. But in terms of actually being a long term sustained business a passing location based data the hundreds of thousands of apps. I think that there is a long term play there that is sustainable, and that they could continue to do is a very long time, and maybe never reached the heights that people expected but still maintain a pretty solid this. And I I think that this dovetails nicely into another story that became a part of the discussion this week.


Which was the Instagram is being the the rumors are that Facebook is going to be starting to absorb their location data. And use it for advertising purposes, and you know, for me that's a bigger signal that these 2 events happening at the same time show that location is far from dead. And that it's more that the most important thing in terms of the marketing world, it are those signals that are being


tacitly given from people as opposed to how cool your location up is book, you know, all the. I just the fact that every photo on Instagram gives you the chance to tag where you you were when you had this photograph. Gives unimportant signal to advertisers about what users are actually doing what they're interested in what they're buying what they're using. You know, all of that comes out of those signals. That that is just from tagging your photograph with


a location. So. I think that Julian's right on the money here in terms of we know what advertisers and marketers are looking for in the end. I mean, it's the second wife Simon felt that it was a good time to invest in linked. Then I'm not linked in into our sponsor the in investing in foursquare at this particular moment. I think I know there's value in this. I just I feel that they don't do a good job of all even they


look based ads. I mean to see the ads that you better appealing to you that are important to you products and services or whenever to see ads that are personalized to you. I think is a good experience on the user base. But the or on the consumer rather than the consumer because I think so often they're they're just not promoted eloquently on enough to the consumers to know that like these are ads like this comedian, Rory Scovill mazing comedian, but he was


coming to Nashville, and I and I guess I looked him up. And then I was on Instagram and I saw suddenly I saw the ad. Hey, Rory skills coming to Nashville at I click through and purchase tickets right away. So I appreciated that. So, but I think a lot of times consumers don't understand. I don't understand the benefits of this. I think there's still a little ways to go. You know, what you gave as a really good example. But I think that there's a ways to go to figure out how to really impact creative with


it that signal versus just holistically having it be 1 of the signals that you're looking at to help make tactical decisions that oftentimes are always in real time. And I think the real time nature of it means that you have to have the capabilities to have coffee adjusted based on location, and that's still kind of a place where I don't think we're a 0 percent there yet. Well, moving on our final topic. The reserve fascinating looking at week at a recent trend of young


brands creating magazines of their own customers Enes if you will to support their product and enhance the perceived lifestyle surrounding it. And I'm going to throw this out to the panel. Is this truly a trend that more brands should be trying or simply a good idea for a select few companies like away, which was featured the luggage maker. So. Dave any thoughts on this? I think it comes down to the cost of the time and effort and production of the physical magazine.


So so there's the cost that you have to factor into that. And then whether you can. Obviously recoup that cost and and hopefully make something on on. A magazine is is the key thing. Right. So for example, like luggage company could include include their own magazines in the luggage about travel, and if they work together with because this is an opportunity for sort of like minded similar, but non competitive brands to capitalize on. So you could have Southwest Airlines advertisements or coupons or whatever


in this magazine. And then they could sell it because you know, they're going to people and luggage and people would luggage are travelling. So it's a no brainer. So so it's really that that balance of making sure that the that you see the return on investment of this MAG of the actual printing and the development of the content, and by the way, I'm a big proponent when I work on my clients, and I teach them how to use digital marketing and all this stuff. I talk about reusing, reducing recycling and reusing old content recycling it into new content and reducing the stress of having to come up with new content


which I've often struggled with. And so here's a perfect example of like taking your best blog content, and then just repurposing it for for articles in the magazines. You've already got that. If you already have an Instagram feed, you already have photos that you could be using in this in your own magazine as well. So I think it wouldn't be overly complicated to produce. And nowadays with the cost of printing being much lower than it used to be. I think it's probably a good move. But but I will say that. For me. This is.


DT see the whole direct to consumer trend mixed with just good old-fashioned. I mean, I I totally agree with Dave good old fashion. Content strategy. It's just that it's not taken the form of a tweet, or you know, or or a Facebook post. It's taken the form of a good old fashioned. Parental or piece of collateral. And and the thing that I would add Harry's. Why I love the examples some examples away and dollar shave is will first of all I mean, this is a


little cynical. I know and and me being cynical. I know you're all shocked, but I often say like when people tell me, what's the value of magazines to the ago, they have only 1 value, and that's to read in the toilets idolize that you know, magazines. They're the best thing to kind of page through when you're on the crappo, hopefully, I can say that would and so it works so well for dollar shave because they're putting together. Collateral that you're reading in the bathroom the in the same place


that, you know, whether you're in the Baltimore on the toilet, you know, when you're actually using many of their products and far away. It's just a great opportunity because when is the 1 time that you, okay? I'll it's not just the crapper. It's also when you're traveling when you want to pick up a magazine. And they don't even have to talk about random stuff and lifestyle. They can actually talk about travel tips empowered tips and and destinations you know. And and it really is just a kind of reinvigorated


play of what AmEx did pretty well with departures magazine. The the the byproduct of being able to sell and monetize through like, minded advertisers or advertising. I think that you know, as long as we don't put the cart before the horse that may come. But I don't think that that is the primary reason to do it. And in fact, if it does become a could actually ruin it. So here's what I'll say, Bob when you when you pose the question, you said is this a trend or does this


work for just a select few advertisers? I mean, it's certainly the ladder in terms of the certainly the wouldn't work as strategy for every possible kind of product marketer on the other hand, I think for certain product marketers if they are content creators, which I think every brand regardless of the brand should be a content creator. This could be an effective form of content that they create for their potential customers. But I think it's a very niche. Kind of


marketer that this works for at scale. With any real real value? Away is a great example. You know, anybody that you kind of point out. Fit into kind of dollarshaveclub. Joe says you read it in the proper because you use the use the tools that the crap bird so on and so forth. So I do think very much. So this is limited to select few kind of advertisers. I think it's a great piece of content. If you could create. A nice piece of content and included in some kind of fashion.


So I went to see venom the other night with my son. He wanted to see the movie on the way out of the movie got a comic book. That's a nice piece of marketing. My kid that want to go buy more venom comic books later on. And it's a nice cycle for marble, and so on and so forth whether or not that works with every possible advertiser. I don't wanna see toothpaste provide me magazines. I don't wanna see paper towels provide magazine. So I do think it's very very niche. But I think it can be a great way to kind of be a content


creator and provide value to consumer. I could see I could totally see toothbrushes brand during a magazine on positively positive living in people smiling all the time [laughter]. Well, it's time for the Advil 5, but before we get to that segment of the show. I want to take this quick up community to thank my guests again and allow them the each do a shameless plug starting with Dave Delaney. You can find him at future That's the home of his his consultancy. Right.


That's how you would best describe it. So tell us what's going on in your world. Dave, what would you like to promote? Yeah. Thanks. I'm really excited. I so I've got something you can find it at communication And it's a in person workshop that I'm doing with the teams to improve communication with businesses that in, you know, improves all all of that stuff. And I won't bore you with all the details. But if you go over to the site, and you know, there's information they're all about it and at future for this. Well, there's actually links to the holiday


inspired training for communication rebate. So check it out. Awesome. Awesome. Definitely definitely check that out. Next up. Joseph Jaffe, you can find him at the H M as That's the whole of his consultancy with wind power who was on just a couple of weeks ago. And she did phenomenal. You were up against some real competition here [laughter]. So glad that you could make it tell us what's going on in your world. What would you like to promote? At that episode,


by the way, was hysterical. He uses I I was I was busy laughing along at you guys. Getting old hysterical with 1 another [laughter]. Definitely good rapport mean he got little power. And you got brandy Bodnar. I mean good God. It was like it was like a fun fast for him for me to be on the program. And by the way, full credits have run because he you know, you had to panelists as opposed to 3 and Cecil as a little bit hotter. When in I the they're not passengers when it comes down to to balance. So I think you guys did a great job. I


thoroughly enjoyed that episode. Yes. So. The idea with the h must be goes we say that in a we help our clients navigate the journey to survival. I'm but a lot of people were saying, well, what do you mean to survival? We wanna do better than than survive. And and I think the point is that we make his look we're always in the survival business nowadays. And it's so it it's a never ending journey. There is no destination and you'll never arrive at survival. But ultimately,


the hope is to move from from survival to what we call thrive will. And so, you know, I'll I'll workshops debut toyed by your workshops, our workshops, we call voyagers, and I in the maiden voyage the deliverables are a survival plan, but ultimately to then get. A growth clan or return to growth plan? So that's just a little bit of of of elaboration and the other thing I will say is on October eighteenth. I'm we're having a little


soiree a little launch party for the HMO beagle in New York City. So, you know, if you listen to the bean cost, clearly, you're a good person a smarter person and someone worth knowing and certainly if you wanted the the panelists to my panelists today if you guys all around. City the evening of October eighteenth to shoot me an Email Jeffey at the a at the dimiss amiss., and I would love to put you on the list, and Bobby you are at the


top of the VIP invitee list. Ready earthy pizza [laughter]? I will definitely be there. If I'm there. I will be there to I think that that'd be awesome absolutely unless but not least Julian silver brands, you can find him had Little tiny company, you might have heard of them. So tell us what's going on in your world. Julian what would you like to promote, you know, with me? It's always very very simple, please watch television. Specifically, he is watch


my cable networks do not disconnect your cable, in fact, reconnect cable, if you have disconnected the cable and go ahead and turn on some comedy, central cement, TV or some Nickelodeon and brighten up your day because I'd like to eat it [laughter]. Well, played and as yes for me. For more information about me or the show visit the bean, and there you can find complete show archive. You can find out how to consult with me, you can even find


out how to advertise on this program. So check it all out at the being And don't forget transcribe is artificial transcription partner providing transcription services for every episode of being cast. I'm about 2 weeks behind. I've got 2 of them sitting in my in box. I gotta put up but. They are definitely doing a great job. And we'd love them for it. And they're giving you a special deal. Just go to transcribe cast in you'll get a special discount when you use them


for your first transcription service through the service. So check it all out a cast. And now it's time for the Advil 5 a rundown of the lowest moments in advertising marketing and public relations from the last week. And I stop mean costume parties mean not mean neem costume parties are all the rage this year. So, of course brands are getting in on the action. Unfortunately, Joe urban outfitters decided the phone


in their effort by simply packaging together, a 59 dollars sports bra and leggings combo in calling it an influence or costume. Now. I think this is funny, but it did get some negative feedback from the from the audience. What's your take on this? I agree. I think it's wacked and so like lot. Out of control that it actually is quite funny. And I will think it it it it it has a charm about it almost if you're prepared


to laugh at yourself for all all off at so-called influences. The ages seemed like that. They they might be a silver lining. I'm just not show where it is a month actually in the bra. But I guess, okay. If it works for Kim Kardashian. It can work for anyone. Right. I guess. Mirror mixed up EBay may public evidence that Amazon was using the EBay merchant messaging system Julian in order to poach merchants over to the Amazon sellers platform.


This is just ballsy [laughter] [laughter]. This one's this 1 guy. Right. Next up EC maker Jewell had their offices raided by federal investigators who seized thousands of documents pertaining to. Wait for a Dave wait for it. They're marketing specifically their intentional marketing to teens. Now, of course jewel completely denies this.


Obviously, the FDA is looking for some kind of evidence to support their claims what what's your what's your take on that 1? I just wish they would, you know, decide on whether these things are in a safe or not my Spidey sense says not [laughter], but that's just me. Yeah. I mean, it's just it's just terrible. And as I mentioned this came up twice that I've ever I stopped smoking. I quit like 21 years ago. So it's been awhile. But it's still a


thing that drives me crazy, and especially having 2 young kids who are impressionable and seeing the number of the fact that teenagers are among the most the people that smoke or that use e cigarettes. I hope they throw the book at them if they did wrong. Absolutely. What they? What what what this company needs, which I guess is Philip Morris rioted, sir. Yeah. I always rule is not Philip Morris book as well. I I guess what they need is a purpose based


marketing [laughter]. Well, made my brain weld late. Roar grand old ad fell comes to an ignominious end Julian trunk trunk tearing T R O N sunny has given up on the worst name shame at change ever. And is now back to calling themselves the Tribune company once again, and it has there been a bigger scale than trunk.


[laughter]. Oh, bad. Good for them for recognizing the mistake and changing it bad on them for taking 2 years to do. So would worse on them for coming up with it in the first place [laughter] regret? It sounds suspiciously. Like another word and online. [laughter]. It's a living SNL skit I could pick the frog and as far as easy that will Ogilvie in the middle of tweeting out a series of


protests from easy de George Tenenbaum hastily had the delete 1 that said that women and specifically women Joe should forget about trying to get on 1 of those 40 under 40 less, but stick instead to your knitting now, obviously, I know the expression stick to your knitting, but the single out women specifically in this in this comet really came off as a tone deaf comment. Didn't it? Look, this is the company that once


said do not insults, the consumer. She is your wife. Yep. Absolutely. Will have something to add to this list. Or just wanna discuss it comment online. Use the hashtag add fell 5. That's pound. Add fell in the number 5. And that does it for this week's show if you'd like to subscribe to this podcast, visit our website at the being and click on the subscribe link. If you're an I tunes listener, we've also provided a direct link to the I team's music store or


just search for the being cast in the podcast directory of I tunes and whichever podcasts. Directory you use. When you subscribe, please leave us a review got a comment have a question we'd love to hear from you just send your emails to being cast a gmaiLcom opening theme was performed by. Joe Seidel closing theme by C Jack's thanks for listening. I'm Bob nor p- we'll be back again next week. Hope you'll join us then




exactly data list. Great conversation or shirt. And I normally hate Montanaro said this is a big deal [laughter]. Freaked out as a compliment than fantastic. I'm jackie. This was really funny.


Cool beans.