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BeanCast 513 Transcript

BeanCast 513: A Lousy Negotiation Tactic

Date: 03-Oct-2018

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Bandwith provided by recruits of squirrel. Interactive transcription services provided by Visit them on the web at transcribe cast for up to 25 percent off. That's transcribe Episode 500 13 a lousy negotiation tactic.


For Monday September 20 fourth 2018 it's time for this week's addition of the be cast a weekly discussion about the news in issues. Facing marketers today? I'm your host, Bob Norton. Thanks for


joining us adobe just bought Marchetto for nearly 5000000000 dollars leading many to wonder whether we're just at the start of a wave of big consolidation in the marketing automation sector, what are the possibilities tonight? We'll discuss also why trust of media agencies continues to flag whether VR offers hope for improving customer service Amazon nipping at the duopoly


plus this week's Advil 5 that's the lineup. Let's me. Tonight's battle. Thanks for joining us for this week's been cast. I'm Bob nork. And with me on the panel for this evening. We start with the social and influence or communications lead for global markets at IBM, MS brandy, Bodnar, boy, that's always hard to say your title there. So many words in it. So many words, it must be important


possible responsibility. I find that the the the less letters you have in the name of a company the longer the titles [laughter]. No also with us. She's led several New York ad agencies. And is now a founding partner of brand culture and innovation consultancy the HMS. Beagle. Ms Lynn power. Lynn. Welcome to the program for the very first time. Yeah. Thank you


[laughter]. Well, we've got a lot to talk about right off the bat, and I want to jump right into this. First topic big rumblings in the industry. This week is adobe announced that they were buying more keto for nearly 5000000000 with a B dollars to round out, their marketing, automation, footprint and compete more effectively against Salesforce, at least that's what the press release says. Now in spite of the obvious surprise over this price, tag Lynn.


Does this purchase makes sense for them? Is it a smart move for them the purchases company in water the outcomes for consolidating a player like Marquette oh into the adobe architecture? That's a great question. I mean, I I think there's always a question. I can. Allegation anyway. Right because anytime there consolidations it takes capabilities and sucks him off the market. And as always the question as to whether or not the companies acquired can keep innovating to the degree that they were


before, and and and Mark meadows kiss. I think that was a little bit of a question. I think they had gotten a little bit, you know, off the game. Now, having said that I think for adobe it makes a lotta sense because they are all about combining the creative suite of tools, and that's what they've been standing for forever, right creatives. Love them known them. But now they've got the ability to do marketing automation, and CRM and really lead generations. They can build a machine. The thing that I'm questioning though


is content and data is not is not the answer. You know, it's part of the answer. And at some point. Are we going to see them realize that you actually need real insights and knowledge to fuel the content and data, and I wonder would they, you know, do something like try to acquire a Kantar to to boost that capability and really provide a 1 stop shop for marketing. Or do. They even go more bleeding


edge with a start of like current C U R N t which is about knowledge creation platform could fuel by experts. And do they try to go that route? And and at least provide some. Kind of front end insight of a capability attached to all this great marketing machine that they're now. Trying to built herbs so many questions for you having so many things for the first and foremost that pops to mind, you really believe that they're going to go on


a buying spree after spending 5000000000 dollars that it seems more likely the some of the other players that get into the buying mode and try to compete, and bolster their own offerings considering that adobe is now rounding out there, Sweden is a serious competitor. To the CRM engines of a lot of the other big players. Well, there's no question that the marketing machine can get rounded outright. So yes, I agree with you that other players are now going to go we need that who sorry [laughter]. Cable says the word


[laughter], and and also do that. And and I'm I'm just being provocative for the future. Because I think. I think that's almost like going to be table stakes at some point, do, you know, what I mean, and for them to really get ahead, and to really think of themselves as this, you know, marketing solution, it it again, maybe it's my background from branding and agency world and strategy by all that data is


great. But if it's in a vacuum. It's it's not. So I I think I'm not suggesting they're going to go out and bicycling tomorrow. But I think this is part of a bigger plan. Perhaps is what I'm suggesting that that that that that they are marooned burglar a really dove into that. But I want to turn Brandenburg's through on lecturers the best person to ask all these questions of considering the fuck the poor employers, but I


gotta know point of view on this 1 I hope that your overload of pointed questions, but I'm going to let you turn you lose. I and over your opinions on this purchase. What what what is your take on the state of the industry and what this means to the consolidation race? That may be coming. I mean, I mean, I I do agree with Agri with Lynn. And I I have a very different perspective around marketing automation. You know with the capabilities that my company has you know,


we can track. Our, you know, every marketing dollar, we spend based on tools that we've created and you know, kind of overlaid with our Watson technologies. So when I saw this, and I was like, wow. And then to your earlier point Bob with a 0. I was like, wow. This is I guess like game on like this is. Okay. So this is what's happening. And what does that mean? Now. Again, different perspective for us for my company. But I think industry


wise, again, I agree with with Lynn me know, her experience, and what she seen on the agency side. It is now it's really again. Like, what are you gonna do your data campus living a silo? What does this mean? And then if we look at like the race is on now with you know, I guess you could say we've declared war they declared war so to speak or who's going to win. I'm just kind of sitting on the sidelines like food law. Very interesting. You love buy stuff in right? But it is it's pretty it is


the selling of Christian in the room because everybody's trying to be the 1 ring the reasonable. That's why all these consolidations were happening was so much expansions going on in the marketing automation field. People want to be the 1 dashboard that does everything and yet there is not a single company out there, or at least not in any kind of sizable fashion that is using only a single tool. They all use a conglomeration of adobe and


Salesforce, Marquette, oh in a smaller players like percolate and a few of the other ones, I think is called edge. You know, the there's there's so many different players out there in the marketplace y- involved with this is it even reasonable to think that 1 player Lynn can become that 1 ring to rule them all given the fact that most of the companies out there that are using these tools are not buying into that philosophy.


I mean, it's tough, right? Because I feel like there's all this sort of vision out there of how easy would be to just pull everything together and just making under 1 thing. And but their time, you know, we we've seen time and time again that that's easier said than done, and I think it's the goal of what what everyone wants. But it's I mean, you had another reference in and what you sent us this week which was around the ad I D consortium, right like


getting 1 unique personal is identification. That can be tracked back to you. And do it in a way, that's creepy. That's that's harder than it's harder than it. Sounds. So I dunno. I dunno. That's my immune ballroom Brundi, you mean from your standpoint. I mean, your company is pursuing a strategy of wanting to be the 1 player. Eventually, right. I mean, it's just like everybody wants to go for that


in their offering. So does it make sense? I mean, I know this may not be again, the right person to ask this question too. But you know, what kind of pushback are you getting from your clients? And how do you answer those questions about the fact that no platform can do everything as elegantly and as simply as a lot of these players were saying they can. So now, I I do agree. So again, we part of the business that is responsible for marketing automation. And again client is


our Watson customer engagement that is the part of our business. You know that? That handles marketing automation request in for our client. I can assure you if I were in I sit behind that team. So I I hear them like on the phone and they're doing deals. I bet if I ask them tomorrow. Hey, guys, who which which of our clients had questions about the Marquette? Oh deal. I guarantee you all of them are gonna say all I had to get on the phone with Owens. So are all I had. I bet there. I can only imagine that our clients were asking


about that. I can tell you just again just from what I see it the corporate but not going into the business unit lens as far as having 1 the 1 ring to rule them. All we tell our clients that look. The products that we're selling reading for marketing automation. It's not, you know, a magic bullet 1 size fits all. But we are confident again, given with Watson capabilities and technology that we can do things other people can't do given that we have this capability,


but we never I I don't believe we sell it like up is all you need. You won't mean anything else is just it is the end all be all uncle to your point about. That's not where we are. Now, if you look at this kind of how marketing as an industry is transforming, and what this means for, you know, the marketing transformation that some saying everybody's now going to be like, well, I have to what it what does the modern marketing function. Look like, you know with with the right technology. I don't necessarily know if it's going to be the 1


technology. That's the question. Everyone's started asking lakes. What does this? What does this mean for us 5 years to nearly 2 years? What does this mean for? You know, something that comes to mind when I talk with you mentioned digital transformation. Brandy and instance, lake and people who are involved with digital transformation transformation have enough problems on their plate already. And Lynn you deal with this with your clients. You talk about how people can go through this


process of changing their brand culture in order to embrace new technologies embrace innovation, but does this really solve a brands problem? Having additional services that Marquette already on the market. Oh offers or does it just acquire more keto customers, and it really doesn't do anything to sway someone is using a Salesforce CRM database to come over to the adobe platform to kinda unified just just because it adds additional complication in the digital


transformation. It's a good question. I'm not sure that they're gonna be able to steal business from Salesforce that easily to your point. And also, you know, once things are embedded into a system in a culture, it's often hard to change that. So there there is there is that piece. Although I'm sure there are plenty of. New companies and startups all the time that this proposition would make sense for because I think 1 thing that I hear time and time again from clients these days, and this was like my life agenda BT, right? They want some


simplification they they don't want to have 12 agencies are 20 agencies are 100 agencies are how however many digital partners. They want things to be easier and more turnkey. So they will take let me let me think we we can't confuse the desire to simplify contacts in an agency relationship with the the use of a digital platform because it's just like, it's it's not easy to change agency


relationships, but it is vastly more easy than trying to change your your platform. Your your marketing automation platform in any kind of sense because then you have to deal with the cultural desire to use old tools as opposed to migrate over to the new tools and the of all the complaints that go on. And then you've got the holdouts, and you've got all this stuff going on in the background. It's a it's a much more complicated process. I would say I agree with you on chains though. Like going to again, existing Salesforce


customers and telling them to change is hard, but going to new new prospects. It's a better story. Frankly, it is, you know, you're you're you're connecting the dots for them. Let me ask you this. I mean, it's it's like not being on the front end of. Or the front lines of selling Salesforce sewing adobe into the marketplace. How many holdouts can there possibly be who don't have any kind of a marketing automation platform, A M? And at least that they you know, it's


it seems like everybody has some kind of involved. That's true. That's true. That's a good question. I don't know earth fare brandy. What's your sense on the merger? Frontier. I mean, it's it's like, I I know I kind of broach such subject with you. But do you see a lot more of these companies stepping into this this gap? That's been created as a result of the adobe merger with Marquette. Oh in saying, we need to gathering all these other tools that


are available and which tools or ripe for the picking. Do you have any sense of that? I mean, I'm not sure if you're the right person to ask once again, and but you know, maybe you might be able to offer some insight given that your position. Somali anti would say, I think. Yes, that there is I think this is going to continue to happen. But there is people in companies, particularly with technology and marketing automation, since you know, we are living this wonderful connected life. Whether you love it or hate it. And


we live it on. So I do think. Yes. That this will continue as far as like the players in the space who might be thinking about moves like this that I'm not again the right person for that. I would love to ask them 1 on my Watson c team what they think about it. But I do I do think this is just the beginning. I at Idaho. I don't think that while that a jewelry Marchetto, you know, acquisition was amazing. And then 5 years later, we don't see anything else. Maybe next year 2 years were if


this is only beginning, so that's just my personal opinion. Just based on. Just trends and market, and and in the UK, again, just giving my and say working at a technology company. That is a is a huge advocate of marketing automation burqas root for the purchasing going consolidation with a whole bunch of smaller players or some of the big players actually going to consolidate with each other given this move.


Yeah. That's a really good question. I think I wouldn't be surprised if we see a a some of the big players, consolidate. But, but I also think you know, it's it's really easy. There's so many interesting startups out there, and so many interesting players to pick off that you could. You could actually make a dead just starting there. So I I agree with Randy. I think we're going to see a lot a lot of. Traction and movement as as players try to line up capabilities and a more holistic way. You know, a unborn record


as saying I believe that Microsoft is going to buy adobe at some point. I think that then makes the most sense in terms of no marketing offering in the that was true until the Marquette or deal. Now, suddenly adobe has a lot of the things that Microsoft was offering to them if there was some kind of acquisition deal on the table. But it may also make the the adobe offering that much more valuable to someone like Microsoft. And then someone else I was talking to you this weekend


suggested potentially that Amazon was the player who could take over in adobe or something like that. Which is an interesting outsider opinion, considering the fact that they run most of the web with AWS. You know? And adding a layer of marketing cloud on top of that makes a lot of sense for a player like Amazon, so IBM cloud. Also runs a lot of the technologies that people are right. Let's not count that out [laughter].


I just want to make you know, make it known Gabby. I'm caught a lot of people are running air, particularly for marketing automation. I just want to throw that out. I see the commercials in. Yes. Absolutely. My bad [laughter]. IBM Representative on them, not mentioning IBM. So that's amazing. Well, we're going to move on. And we're going to talk next about trust in media buying it set an all time low which is keeps getting lower. It's 1 of the topics that is high on mind of many of the


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00:19:59 cast. That's a D R O L cast. Well, just in case you thought the situation between media buying and advertisers was getting any better. A new study suggests that 40 percent of clients distrust their media buying partners, which if you're playing at home is a drop of nearly 11 percent since last year Lin, we know why this is the case we know about all the


controversy that's gone on over the last few years. But why can't we fix this problem? And why are things getting worse? What's your opinion on this situation? So yes, there's clearly an issue and media buying, but I actually pull back, and I go, okay. Trust is actually becoming a huge issue period. Adult men does a barometer every year on trust. I think they've been doing it for something like 17 years and HP are


typically publishes it at in the last year. I think they found that trust declined in business media government and NGOs across the board. Which is the first time that's happens. On top of that. I think there is now like an unprecedented lack of confidence and leadership. Across the board and people just don't trust businesses to do the right thing. So I I feel like the media buying question is kind of wrapped up in


this bigger ethos of what we're dealing with. Frankly, what's the percentage drop entrust overall? Because it seems the booths drop is pretty precipitous when it's talking about media buying in particular mean, I agree with you. There is a problem with trust across the board, and that's gonna affect all business relationships but to be down 40 percent. And then know that you dropped another 11 percent over the course of the last year that seems like it's outside the ratio of


normal drops in confidence that are going on across the the marketing spectrum. I wish that was true. But I actually think the lack of confidence is pretty unbelievably high like 70 percent like the numbers are pretty bad. So you know, when you actually look at it across the board at it says, it's pretty grim to be honest. And I think there are a number of reasons for that. And we can all talk about those probably for hours and hours and hours because we feel it to right where people to we feel this


issue happening. But I think a big thing is, you know, fear of globalization fear of companies focused on a, you know, financials and not uncertain corporate citizenship and doing the right thing. And these are all issues that are just you know, there's lots and lots of them. There's lots of reasons why people are anxious. But I think there are some very specific things that are eroding our trust in Akron again across the board. And I just think the media buying thing is is


just the latest casualty if you if you think about it that way in the sense of. Yeah. Why would we trust them? Either [laughter]. Mean Jamaica, really, really good point? And I think that that's absolutely a big factor in why this is going on. And why we can't corrected. There's a general sense of distress out there in the marketplace. And I can see why that would make it harder for media agencies to turn the corner. But brandy coming from a client perspective


Amina a mug and ask you to speak on record on behalf of IBM boat. Why is it that agencies can't seem to get in bed with their clients? Again. What's going on here [laughter]? Yes. I'm not going to you know, why agencies can't get in bad from the client side again like at. Our agency relationships on our agency partners. I think that we have a good relationship


with them. But I do think well as Lynn was talking about transparency and trust, you know, we've had a long standing you're talking about more than 2 decades that we've been with some of our agencies all if you could get up enough from a relationship or like a marriage that was a long time. I don't know what you're twentieth anniversary is you're 26. Anniversary. You know when people celebrate. So, you know, those are really longstanding relationships now, and again, I can't speak for those who may be been with their agencies less than


5 years. And if there is, you know, kind of a transparent parenting assure trust issue, where you might not feel comfortable or you want to, you know, continue doing business or you want to bring more things than house or what have you? But it's just like, it's a relationship rain. So again, like I said of what I you know, we're coming. I'm coming from it from a standpoint of more than 2 decades, the some of our agency partners. So it's it's a mutual respect. But no transparency plays a huge role in you 2 decade relationship brings a


follow up question for you riches few have a longstanding relationship and the relationship has been billed on everybody's playing nice. But not really telling the truth. You've got a a large amount of distrust. You got a large amount of anger and frustration brewing on both sides of this equation. So how much of this is purely based on the fact that agencies were added for taking kickbacks as opposed to agencies saying enough is enough.


We need to be paid for what we're doing. And we need to stop being negotiated into the ground. By the procurement agency agents within the organization, so I mean, both sides have distrust and both sides have disatisfaction with the relationship. How did they go to the table and make this better? I not they they just have to make it. Right. It's not optional. I don't think at this point. Like, you said, you know, when do you say like enough is enough while we're


looking at you know, I feel like it's September 20 18 20 19 you can see it or how long is the public. How long are you going to do that? Like, how long are you gonna have a leg to stand on? And do you want to be called out? Do you wanna be called out in a very public very shameful way? Like, it just it has to stop. So both sides have to make that decision to say, you know, what does this might have been how it used to be? Or this is what happened? But no, you know, now it again enough's enough. Now, we're bringing this to the table. This is what is


this is what is in. And this is how we're going to move forward, and it has to be a conscious decision on both on both sides. Inland. Any additional thoughts on that? I mean, how obviously you come from the agency side of the equation. And you've sat across from procurement agents a lot lotta times. And I'm sure you've experienced a lot of the dissatisfaction that agencies feel about this as well as being able to see as a consultant. Now, the reality of client, distrust, how do you get past this how to both


sides get to a place where there are sitting at the bargaining table. And they've got satisfying resolution. Yeah. I mean, I kind of go back to some really basic fundamental things. Like really understanding the value creation of what you're providing you know, if if the expectations from the client on 1 side and the agency are another side. Of course, you're going to have people that are unhappy and you don't trust each other. It's hard when clients keep cutting fees and kind of arbitrarily going


client a going to agencies and saying like, hey, we need 20 percent off this year 30 percent off this year. But we really don't wanna change the scope. So I think part of this has to be those honest conversations upfront that say like, okay. You know, you want things to be different. You want more transparency you want to operate in different way. This is what it means. And this is what it means for your business is what it means to the people in your business. This is how it's going to have to change moving forward. And I don't I often don't see those conversations happen with the right


people. Because the procurement person is not gonna stand the nuances of what we're talking about. The people in the brands they live it every day. They'll understand that. It's like, wait. What do you mean? I'm not going to have that anymore. You were never going to get out of their relationship. With a procurement agents the procurement agents or part of booth shift that went on during the eighties were I know, I know, you know, we're not, but we have to figure out a way to to EMI what we what we were trying to day, or at least which seemed


to work a little bit was. You know, you don't do that in isolation. You know, you you could give context for what you're doing. You bring in the brand people when you need to you have broader conversations with the team. So that, you know, you're not sitting there was somebody who only cares about the money and the bottom line, you know, that they that they actually will understand that. There are implications and repercussions for you know, some of this change of of the way of working in and some are really great positive and will move us forward and get momentum.


And and other changes are going to be harder for the culture to swallow. But you need to understand both. You know, I I look good vision of bringing in the players were directly involved with it at the business to sit in the negotiations and provide a human perspective to the procurement negotiations. But brandy would is there any incentive for that to happen. I mean, you don't bring the talent. You don't bring the the the the movie star to the negotiation table, you send the


agent who hard balls [laughter]. Everything to get through the best number. So I mean, this is this is a great solution that lens proposing. But how likely is it that something like that's going to happen considering the fact that it's a lousy negotiation tactic. Archibong Randy on a lake in part of Lynn. I'm just saying I'm just saying [laughter]. But keep in mind, like the marketing people generally


want that because they don't want to get screwed by something that. They have to adhere to that. They know isn't gonna work. Of course. Of course, they do the, of course, they want to be involved with it. Yeah. Absolutely. They wanna have that happen. But. Again, you know, when you're talking about a company that is all about shareholder value and reducing cost. Increasing value. You send the negotiator to the table. You don't send the people who are bleeding hearts and saying all, but we'd like them. You don't want them sitting at the table. I mean, it's a bad


negotiation tactic. Little negotiating 1 on 1. You know, the U N does a lot of like conflict resolution since you know, Bobby think those are lousy tactic [laughter]. Look, look, I'm not saying it up in a perfect world. I agree. 100 percent. I would rather have a friend sitting across me at the table. But I'm just saying there's no real legitimate reason


[laughter]. I hear you [laughter]. Well, moving on WalMart announced to [laughter] I got the last word on we go [laughter]. Tzu [laughter]. Last time, I'll be on the beast [laughter]. No. Well, WalMart


announced that they were purchasing 11000 occupants go VR units to be used in training, employees and things such as customer service. So brandy. Good move or just a lame PR effort. And how many of these things are still going to be at the stores within a week [laughter]? As really interesting, WalMart is client. So I I'm just going to speak either as a consumer as someone who shops at WalMart a lot and as a marketing PR expert,


right? So I think it's good and bad. This is an all probably why I think it's good in. Why I think it's the right thing to do. And then I'll tell you why I'm a little concerned. About it. This is no this is not new for WalMart with VR. If you guys remember, and I and I am a faithful black Friday actually now on thanksgiving night shopper at WalMart. When you can get like, these, you know doorbuster deals that they have for an hour. But they they started doing VR ruderman


Doritos. Learn something about you that needs student loan of warlord Mohamed. I we have shirts that say black Friday warriors. Lied at WalMart at 10 P M on thanksgiving night. We leave our family. After all the cooking and eating is said and done. Our family thinks we're insane. We put our t shirts on and we go to WalMart. And and we


stand in line, and I can tell you. It's the best social experiment. I've ever been to is you get all whole. I there were emotions in me getting 1 of my 60 inch television. I just did not know I had it me. After waiting in line up WalMart, so yes, I oh my God. I love it. I have black Friday warrior. I'm proud this using. That's a really amazing story [laughter]. Black Friday, WalMart was


using VR to train employees because I can just tell you the sheer volume of people. And and I am here in New York, rob. So the sheer volume of people that go to WalMart on thanksgiving. And I've done it both them in Louisiana and a New York originally from New Orleans. The they needed to train and have the employee's ready as they have various, you know, just the changes every hour on what's on sale what the store so that that there are no stranger to that what I'm concerned. And I think it's a good


idea to to us. We are headsets Oculus to train the employees if there's new technologies if there's new things that they're selling WalMart is steadily trying to keep up with Amazon being go to, you know, for various things from clothing to appliances to gadgets, or what have you? So in that respect, I think it's good because your employees, that's the worst. When you ask 1 of the people in the blue vests. Where something is may like look at you like, why are you asking you? I'm asking you because you work here. When


[laughter] it just it's infuriating when that happens all all too often at a WalMart. So I think that that is good. What concerns me about this is okay? They the article if you were to read, you know, any of the coverage, oh, they're going to cheat. The employer are train the employees on customer service. And this is the first time will be at scale at you know, because it's all the WalMart stores, and that's good. Yeah. Woohoo, but it says also they're going to train them sauce skills.


Which worries me that worries needs all of us have had an experience a good experience at the WalMart. Greeter who's navigated? I don't know 65 73 who smiles and greets you when they when you come into the store. Most of us have had unpleasant experiences with the disgruntled WalMart employees who may be has worked too many hours is covering for someone who didn't show up for work dealing with, you know, a number of things that can take place.


Do you really think of VR headset is going to train that person in a soft skill that's human behavior? And honestly, I don't think the thaw skills or something you can teach either somebody is a nice person or knows how to act like an adult or social norms in a certain or they don't. I I personally am concerned that you're gonna say, well, you know, Bob, can sometimes be real harsh and say things like lousy tactic. But if he goes, you're your river dirt alert


goes with VR Oculus Bob is going to emerge that he's going to be a different man. He's going to be sold polite and so naive. He's been an excellent efforts or just lag that by it. I just don't buy it. So I just I want to make sure that they use it. And I think it's good. If it works at scale for customer service for training. So that the employees know what's new what's hot water? The like I would love to to find out or


ask a WalMart. What are the the 10 most frequently asked questions a WalMart employee gets? 10 most frequently asked question. Train them in that. So that they're prepared. You know, it's you know, it's almost like people who go to McDonald's and stare at the menu. It does it change. Are you staring at the menu. Can you imagine the doing something like that that they're already serving the questions that are most ass by employees and doing training, and it's just not sinking in and they're looking for a


device to make it more realistic and make it more part of the experience. So that they can they can own it, mentally not just completed test in 'em go off onto the shown to the showroom floor in and just act the way they wanna act. I mean, if this is more about making the experience real. If I understand the article correctly Enright, the that's what the article is the my my issue, or that is it's a cultural, it's a culture, and you talked about this at the beginning, you know,


answering the questions from kicking off the podcast around culture. I think it's it's a it's a culture thing. Now, you say old I would assume that they're already doing this training. I am telling you, I am a very loyal WalMart. I'm I'm in WalMart at least 4 or 5 times a month. And every time I'm in there. The WalMart employee has like no idea what I'm talking about. And I don't want it. And I'm in there so much. Unlike really good, you don't know what I'm talking about. If I see a commercial or go online. And then I go in the store, so


somewhere the training isn't sticking. And if you think it's just this is just about training in police. I still don't think they have it right again. Black friday. Yes. I do applaud them because the law goes on black Friday things changed a lot of people. But just a if you go to a WalMart at you know, 3 P M on a Tuesday. I am not going to say the customer service is excellent. I'm not going to say that because it's not. Loomed. What's your take on this


love for you to respond brandy? You're not going to agree with her either way. But I mean, you know, her consultancy is all about looking at new ways to change culture would VR give people an opportunity to own something mentally that they couldn't get through regular training. So I am kind of in a a little bit of divided place on this. Because on 1 hand there's a lot of evidence that when people experienced something or they trick the brain


into thinking, they're experiencing something for real it sticks. So whether that learning English because you're immersed in New York City, and your, you know, your VR experiences putting you in a place where you can actually use the language versus just, you know wrote. I don't know. But I think there is I think there's there's applicability and training different skills in VR as long as there's a is an AI component to it. I think VR alone is not enough. And by the way, there's a lot of huge spectrum of good VR


and badly are right. We haven't talked about that. But like. You know, I think if the if if the software the a I is is sophisticated enough to give a good training experience than you, can you can deliver that now, we're I wear I wear the part of my mind. That's divided goes is I think Randi's right in the sense of some people are just not train full 1 [laughter]. It is it's it's reality. Right. Like, you just can't put the silver bullet out there and go. Oh, now, everything's


going to be perfect because this training that way, you know, it'll help some people. Yes. And some people were remembering no sticking it's better than the current training. They're going through which I guarantee is crappy right? Like, the have you ever done? Those those those video, you know, ethic courses, you know, click click, just horrible. There's there's an approved the bars. So low on so much training that this will lease lift the bar.


Does it solve the problems and make everybody a great employee? Absolutely. Not. Absolutely, not you know, you still have to hire good people. You still have to. Assume that they you know. Well, somebody with a smile, you know, it's like basic human stuff looks thing. 10000 feet Bove just for a second. Let's think about this from a standpoint of recruitment. Does it does the fact that the words out on the street now, at least that's what I'm assuming it happening with this


story. The WalMart has VR goggles as part of their training. And that people who go through it say, oh, man, I got VR training today. And that gets other people who are interested in technology. To apply for jobs at WalMart. So does it improve the type of application over time by having this kind of technological advancement put into play as part of the training at WalMart. I promoted clash tank, and I think that I think there's some degree to an age or


generational barrier to not if I ask my mom. To my mom is lovely and this is not a knock on bombs. But if I asked you to put some goggles on and she's an HR director, Oliver hazard put goggles on. And was like, hey, this will get you top talent. She'd be like what? I would like to just sit down and. Really talked to people as opposed to like she still gonna. And so I think that there's I think that's a gun a loaded. Question because generationally now if you're talking about people who are looking know


high school graduates, go to college. Yeah. To have a VR experience, you know, as far as a as a tactic to be trained and it'll attract you to accompany. Absolutely. But what about the mid level or the senior level executive who you can't see, hey, we're gonna be using VR to attract top talents that you bring, you know, talent into the organization, and you yourself don't know how to use that. That's like, that's fraudulent. Right. It's like, oh, we're touting the technology. But we don't use it. You know, we don't know how to use.


It are ourselves or what have you? So it's a it's a tough. Question because I think of course, generation Z, and I heard now the new generation in the the ones that were born the in 2001 with 9 11 are now called generation alpha. I think we're starting over. But there alpha I was just told that a couple of couple of days ago on. Yeah. That's appealing to them for. No my gosh. Walmart's doing VR training. That's cool. I've always wanted a pair opulent, and I thought the meeting, but


again, it is is someone mid level career. Maybe someone is looking to go back to work. After the kids have left are they going to like jump for joy that they could the our training. I can't say which original supposition that most of these are going to get stolen within the first degree. I don't know if you guys know this the technically. There's more theft at target than there is in WalMart physically. And we're not talking about general floors still stealing retorted that employees stealing which is a whole different


legwork satin late. There's more often target than as a along, man. We delete all kinds of things into that. But I'm not gonna get into that right now. Let's move on to the final topic of the evening, look duopoly. Amazon is nipping at your heels. Amazon is passing oath and Microsoft to become number 3 in online ad revenue. Just behind Google and Facebook login maybe not just behind but getting close. So Lynn is there any


stopping Amazon, or is it inevitable that they will 1 day surpass all players online. Is this a trajectory that is not going to end? So I saw this. And I was like Jahn, really. I mean, come on. We know this. This is not news. I'm sorry. It's not news. So yeah, I think as an I'm an Amazon shareholder, so, you know, transparency there I want Amazon to just keep going Riad because that's good. Now. I will


still say my comments very in the very beginning around consolidation is is still true. You want you want competition, you know, and the competition SP good competition, and that's good for everybody. But having said that I don't think there is any stopping Amazon, I think book in particular is, you know, a challenge as for lotteries, and I think Amazon given that they own the ecosystem, it just makes perfect sense. That of course, they're


gonna get all this ad revenue. I think the more interesting questions around Amazon is where they're gonna go next. Right. I'm sitting here in Colorado. I gotta believe if an Amazon decided to to get into the cannabis business and look at the stock price. Right. But the reality is they could really own the complete chain they own the farms. They could put it in whole foods. They could actually put dispensaries out of business by being able


to distribute and deliver through drones. And there you go that's the next Amazon. So sorry, the Lynn can I just ask you something about the hot button. And I try not to talk about Amazon again because the of tricky spot, but according to thumb thumb analysts that Amazon web services, which is the cloud based business that adspend is gonna outpace. Web services. Yes, Joe, if if web services is


making, you know, they're on par to make however many 0 just wanna say IBM still making more vague. They're supposed to make the next 2 years like some number within the next 2 years the ad ad revenues going to surpass that rape. Because you're dealing with direct to consumer in business to business. Rain shares they're doing both. So if ad revenue like to your very point about them Tate big, you know, the the sky's the limit. It can


take over, you know, integrating a whole foods. And if they wanted to get into cannabis all these very beef with ad sales. Does that mean, the technology piece is is no longer relevant to them and that legacy and traditional players will continue to regain that re reclaimed that market share? Or are they going to try to do too much and be real real big at a lot of different thing. Well, that is a big question or the law. That is a big question. It's a


really good question that umbrella believe wind answer, it's are you took it away. Now. I mean, I honestly don't know the answer to that. Because that's a tough question to answer. But I I think like any big company. I mean, you could say Google's in the same position. You know, how much do you? Do you kind of feed into your legacy business? Right. And and he need him continue to mine and milk and grow that verse is pushing out in all these other innovation areas. And I that's just said that to me is a question that


is about survival, and how you get ahead in today's business, and I think more and more. The reality is legacy businesses need to evolve and. That's just kind of what you gotta do. So the companies that are able to sort of look ahead and see where the trends are and go there, even if it means challenging their current business. I think are the ones that are going to end up in better shape. Luckily, an answer, but it's sort of on all the notes fair.


Fair were leads me to the last question on this topic. Which is do we really believe that Google is not the company is the Google is not the nimble player who challenges accepted norms who has revenue via some of the the fastest growing areas of the internet right now, I mean with both YouTube and the ad sales business that they have going on with the search engine. I mean, you know. Yeah. It was on severely challenges that with intent to


buy but Google still rules intend to find. And that I think that's an important distinction that we need to keep in mind. I mean, yeah, Facebook is seriously challenged, but I don't know whether or not Amazon has it in them to surpass Google is the most important search engine or the most important ad revenue generator. I agree with you. I feel. Yeah. I think Google onset. And I think the more that search becomes visible and.


Image oriented, and even you know. Hey, I was I was talking to a friend of mine who does marketing. She's like, why can't you searched sense? Imagine that like yes, you think about the potential for even the upside of where Google can go with what they can already do. And push that out, and they're still lots of room. So I agree with you. I don't think Google is going anywhere at all. But I also think Amazon, you know,


Amazon's got a lot of runway and. There seems to be no stopping them. Well, that's a good place for us to wrap up. It's time for the Advil 5 before before we go into that segment of the show. I do wanna take this opportunity to thank my guest again. And allow them the each Jewish shameless plug starting with brandy Bodnar you can find heard It's really easy web address really big company, and she's got a very long title as we remember. So tell us what's going on in your world


brandy. What would you like to promote promote we had a really large announcement on Wednesday are speaking of trust and transparency principles around artificial intelligence than a epics. You all might have seen the, you know, cracking the black box. It's not as creepy as it sounds. But it's actually pretty amazing that you know, the difference between good and bad check. So I would encourage everyone listening to check out the truth and transparency principles around artificial intelligence by IBM. It's a good read.


And you know, if you liked it, you can try to document your company that sounds that sounds fantastic. So definitely check that out. And Lynn power. You can find her at the H M S. It is the home of a consultancy that is she is founded with Mr. Joseph Jaffe, I'll let her take it away. Tell us what you'd like to talk about. What would you like to promote? Yeah. I guess. Yeah. New consultancy were really officially launching in about a week, which is really exciting. Although we've


been working with a couple clients, thus far, and we are in the business of helping brands navigate survival. You know, it just feels like that's not a given these days. Whether you're a legacy brand or even a start up. Obviously, we know startups have their own challenges. Or you know, you just need to return to growth. So that's that's our laser focus, and we're just having a lot of fun right now [laughter]. Absolutely. And I loved your vision the expressed to me when we were talking earlier this week. So that's


fantastic. Really really happy for you. But as for me for more information about me or the show. Visit the being there you can find a complete show archive. You can find out how to consult with me can even find out how to advertise on the program. So check that out at the being And don't forget you can now get transcription live on the bean for every episode comes out about a week after the episode post. This is because transcribe bazaar official transcription partner. So if you would like


transcription services, please go to transcribe cast. We'll give you a special offer on your first transcription. And now it's time for the Advil 5 a rundown of the lowest moments in advertising marketing and public relations from the last week. And I stopped subway. Tried to troll Donald's Lynn with a campaign. The prominently featured the golden arches flat lining, which as it turned out just wound up confusing and irritating customers for a range of reasons. Mostly because


it looks just like a McDonald's ad [laughter]. Yes. This 1. How did this get through [laughter]? You know, this is 1 of those things that I'm like what that is almost never a good idea. Like, oh, let's show our competitors logo and the ad not even talk about our self, really. And just. It is it makes no sense. So I just thought it was terrible idea. The only successful competitive ads Knight Frank competitive is unlike featuring your competition that that I can really think about.


Are ones where you're really a challenging, right? Like like macrophages PC. But when you're just basically advertising your competitors [laughter]. It's kind of ridiculous to say really made no sense [laughter]. Be an online retailer of costumes is the latest company to not quick quite get the memo. On what the Handmaid's tale is all about brandy as they marketed their


sexy Han, it's cost me [laughter]. To fall for me. Just the fails. The I have purchased costumes from Gandhi again, I'm a consumer of this brand. Could I also a very dear girlfriend of mine works for a large Halloween actually, the largest Halloween costume retailer. And she tells me that they have like literally critical meetings every year as to like what is a safe


costume. And what is not a safe costume because you can imagine people want costumes ranging from the president to you know, a variety of people. But again, what they will sell, and you know, to be practitioners of good business, and to be culturally, sensitive and all the thing. It's a huge process for that. The fact that you're in the [laughter]. Did not only do that. What you know since the, you know, they they have the sexy Hammett at any point. Did anyone sit around the room and


say have never ever watched the handmaidens just anybody that wound yet the good wishes binge watch it or we should like the anybody even think? To do it. And they have the egg on their face to pull it because they were insensitive just unbelievable and in order to recoup and Renault when you turn to for. It's like. Good L as it's a good thing. That to me is not only did they do the Handmaid's tale costume, but they tried to make it like a


sexy Clinton short because you know, how do their thing has it was short. It was powered out. What was it? Like, no. You don't even understand what they look like [laughter]. We stop the ad I D consortium a coalition of ad tech. Looking to break, the duopolies grip on a spin seems to have been broken by another monopoly here. Lyn AT and T bought 1 of the key players up nexus and


his withdrawing them from the consortium. So I guess what? This means is be a monopoly because monopolies were cool in 18 to you wants to be a monopoly [laughter]. I dunno. I just think the whole consortium idea. It's like, yeah. Let's all get together and create this, you know, unified point of view on on this. It's it's just like I said earlier easier said than done. And obviously, you know, people are kind of peeling off left and right. So I think that's sort of says enough [laughter].


Stop Eminem the rapper took out a full page ad in the Hollywood reporter to blast critics who panned his latest album brandy. Destruc- or sore? Loser watch on Marschall fan, but you need to everybody knows. And if you if you don't like them that said something about you. Everybody knows you do a diss track so doing this track or you know, critics than


he's done before. But to take out the ad to really really screamed. I'm still relevant. I'm still relevant. It's a total sore loser. I I agree. But the the funny thing about this 1. I was like, okay. First of all he took out a Pernet fullest. That's like saying. Yes, I am a hold of their friends know her dad umbrella. I don't forget me. Don't forget it in a print ad. I know that's


ridiculous. It really and the day's worst saying. But we're sitting here talking about it. That's the flip side. Right. Like, the fact that you're like bringing it up and we're having a conversation around him. He's getting PR because been analog 1 thing that have learned about the conversations go on the show. We don't tell when it comes to the jungle of big, right [laughter]?


You'll beat 'em six-foot 5. So I'm here you win. You is claiming that Facebook has been allowing job posters on their platform to target milk candidates, only, you know, every time you turn around the targeting functions on Facebook show up another crack, I don't know whether to necessarily say that anybody was taking these tools and using it just the target males instead of females when they were going


for job postings. But. I mean Lynn it doesn't sound good. And it doesn't look good to have this functionality be exposed by the ACLU. Now, it doesn't look good. And I feel like this is just another situation where Facebook really wants to just be like, no, we just kind of put the tools and the platform out there, but don't really want to take accountability for the content that actually goes out. And you know, it's it's a hot button these days. Right. So you just you


just can't you just can't ignore that. Now, I do think there are like 10 or so companies also though that were. Responsible alongside Facebook, and I would say to them like seriously people like get with the program. Do you not understand that, you know, police officers can be both genders of inclusion and everybody deserves is crazy. It's like really


really really got under my skin. But it was it was funny nonetheless. So we put them on the Advil role have something to add to this list or just wanna discuss it common online. Use the hashtag add fell 5. That's pound. Add fell in the number 5. Well, that does it for this week's show if you'd like to subscribe to this podcast, visit our website at the being cast com and click on the subscribe link. If you're an I tunes listener, we've also provided a direct link to the I team's music store or just search for the being


cast in the podcast directory of vitamins, and whichever podcast directory you use when you subscribe, please leave us a review got a comment have a question. We'd love to hear from you just send your emails to being cast at gmaiLcom opening theme was performed by. Joe Seidel closing theme by C Jack's thanks for listening. I'm Bob nork. We'll be back again next week. Hope you'll join us then


she's almost exactly.


Cool beans.