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BeanCast 514 Transcript

BeanCast 514: Billionaires Whining

Date: 02-Oct-2018

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00:00:30 cast for up to 25 percent off. That's transcribe Episode 500 14 billionaires whining.


For Monday, October first 2018 it's time for this week's edition of the being cast a week. A discussion about the news and issues. Facing marketers today of your host, Bob nor. Thanks for joining experts had been speculating for some time about which of the social media networks would be acquired next


and who will be the buyer. But could there be a wave of several acquisitions on the horizon, and what would be the impact tonight? We'll discuss also customer preferences. The sole driver for retail stocking. How the second screen distracts from primary advertising Instagram's future. Plus this week's add fell 5 that's the lineup. Let's meet tonight's now.


Thanks for joining us for this week's been cast. I'm Bob north. And with me on the panel for this evening. We start with marketing and innovation consultant, MS rose Cameron is back rose. Welcome back. How 'bout dabbling? How are ya? So glad that I could get you on this program [laughter]. So glad I could make it back. And I'm sure I've have just been shuttling everywhere. I know I know you've been quite busy


now. Next up. We have the co founder and CEO of celebrity research company spotted MS Janet commoners, Janet. Hi. Bob. Thanks for having me back. I appreciate it. And I'm looking forward to the discussion. My pleasure. No also joining us. We have the founder of the 6 pixel group, author and speaker, Mr. Mitch Joel I Mitch. Hey, bob. I appreciate these awkward moments were re pretend like this is the first time we're connecting


[laughter]. Hey, you know, you gotta keep the magic alive. Somehow don't be given all your secrets apologize. And finally, we're pleased to have back the principle of Scott, Monty strategies and pragmatic futurist. Yes. He went there. Mr. Scott Monty. Hey, scott. Thanks [laughter]. Well, let's parade in we'll fix it in post


[laughter]. Little ruby pre show banner food leaking into the show. So we'll let system breaking the the topics and forget that ever was said apple just completed their purchase of Zam, which of course, simply signals the next round of speculation about which of the other social networks will be on the next acquisition. As always Twitter and snap from form the center of all the speculation. And we're always talking about Google possibly buying Twitter.


And now there's conversations about Amazon buying snap. But there's also rumors about people moving being interested in buying Pinterest. Always on the speculation board you've got companies like clipboard Mitch are we on the cusp of a wave of consolidation in the social space in what would be the implications of such moves. What are you? What is your take on the current situation right now? I don't think there's a slowdown or an acceleration. I just feel it's this constant pulse of


potential acquisitions and potential consolidation. I feel like the flames were stoked a little bit more last week less because of what happened with his aunt finally being integrated into apple and more because of Scott Galloway from NYU, formerly L to who's now doing a new podcast with cash Swisher over Recode called pivot, and they were working on predictions or they're gonna do predictions every episode and his prediction was that. Snap chatter. Snap is gonna go to Google


or Amazon before the end of this year men and CARA push back a little bit. And they went back and forth on why you know, Google and Amazon why not Facebook or apple. And look I mean, these are all monstrosity of companies at this point. They're all pushing forward into every corner that makes sense in every other corner that doesn't make sense and any buddy who's got a healthy perspective on these types of organizations knows that they're not gonna grow organically,


and they're going to be searching for revenue anywhere and everywhere and companies like snap that are already public. There is a certain discounted value. Because the stock market is never Representative of where the business is actually at. So, you know, I don't think that the market place in terms of the stock market is is necessarily at all aligned with what the companies actually doing you can look back historically on how Amazon would do in relation to the stock price. Now, it's it's changed a little bit. But


back then they were having massive growth. And you know, the markets were pounding them. It made no sense. But I think you know, beyond the sort of who's gonna make a go at a Twitter, a snap a Pinterest or flip board. I feel like the conversation needs to move a little bit away from the fan companies. You know, your Facebook apples Netflixing Google of the world and probably we need to look more. At the opportunities for publishers for big media companies. I feel a sort of healthier perspective when you talk about


those companies in the flip boards and Pinterest of the world more more akin to what we saw with. Let's say and AOL oath and temporizing, wait a minute. This is really interesting. I want to put a highlight on what you're saying here. Because ROY you're essentially saying is that social media consolidation really needs to be looked at as more of a media consolidation going on in the marketplace in that there's going to be big media consolidations were the distinction between old meteor broadcast meteor cable


media will be blurred with that of social is is that what you're kind of alluding to. It's not the only 1 I think that even the major media holding companies from WPP to I p 2 on the com- to to publish all the way down are going to be potentially looking at these types of companies to help back fill. What is definitely a losing/switching model. You know, if if we if we sat down bothered had coffee, which we've done and talked about


what would look like to be a publisher in this day and age, I bet the outcome of it would look more like flip boredom Pinterest in a wood of a magazine or an audio show. So I don't I don't think that those those types of companies are off the table at all. And I think it's in their vested interest to show some form of real market and and stakeholder progression by being taken seriously. And that these days, I don't think these companies are all going to fold into the Facebooks and googles of the world. I just don't believe it. Rose. What's your take on this? Do you agree with Mitch on


his outlook? Or do you have a different take on where the social media space is going to evolve in what the landscape will look like within a few years when it comes to all the media companies that are in play. I think actually 1 of the things that match said that was quite interesting to me, as you know, w p p just made a message bringing them land white arch together. And you you look at some of these agencies that have.


Being traditional advertising agencies and God loves them. They are truly truly clueless on a lot of different levels with regards to catch doc. I, you know, I love them. But it's it's the reality. And so. It's I think they've now realized in a lot of ways that they can't necessarily create that from within and they need to acquire it from with ice. And so, you know, it's they have to keep themselves relevant. To keep that cassock removing otherwise,


what reasons I have not just have a direct interaction with the, you know, the content providers and social media networks. So, you know, I I think 1 of the things that we're looking at right now and Mitch rightly brings it up is how is. The world of advertising and marketing. Going to change because of the social networks and where they're expanded to because everybody's in everybody else's


chilly right night. I would make them may make them with mistake about it. If you look even at WPP, which is my alma mater same here. I know Rosa now we have we have history not together with the same holding company. If if if you look at their strategic investment in WPP digital or their investment arm, they'd made extensive investments in places like vice prior to being what it is. You know, the Weinstein company, which did not work out. So well for for reasons, we all know the media, but they were big into into


a Snapchat. They were they had investments and and a little piece of Facebook. So this isn't exactly, you know, meet sort of breaking any any eggs to make the omelet here. This is something they've done historically. They'll continue to do. I just think now because of the consolidation general. They're gonna bring those investments or acquisitions up to a much higher public visibility. The problem with the the holding company is though is that they just won't pay the multiples on these tech companies that the


big tech giants like oracle, Salesforce and adobe. Well, so you know, I heard from multiple sources that Debbie p p put in offers for moat before they were acquired by oracle at 800 59 bucks, and they were trying to acquire them at like, the 200000000 dollar level. And if WPP were smart, I think they would try and take over a company like Pinterest. Because what I hear from from from from other advertisers. Is that is that Pinterest is really positioning their


advertising sweet as a prospecting solution, which is very very valuable to WPP's clients prospecting as a lot harder than retargeting is. So I think you know, if I think if they were smarter they'd make a go at at a company like Pinterest w definitely change that model historically worked off of a multiple versus growth with a service based industry. I think those investment arms have been really interesting. But I think those investment arms are not going to are no longer going to be the


best best March. They're going to become core to the business. And I think you're you're spot on. But I do believe that they will be painless multiples because they're going to have to compete, and that's going to be the nature, and that's the nature of consolidation in general. And I think you're spot on to the adobe of the world, which I didn't catch his whole arm are going to be the whole CRM side of it. She also don't were you can't discount. What Janet saying though about the mitten dumb? The not being willing to play them the multiples because that spin the play that. Yeah. But that's when the problem is that that's the goods


totally against the DNA of the holding companies. The holding companies have been for years plagued by things like, oh or talent is going to the to the startup community in. Meanwhile, they're not willing to pay any kind of shares in the company, they're not willing to offer equity the not willing to offer. The kind of salaries that are in expectations that go along with working in the startup community. It's almost like they're hampered by. This this decision making process that's antiquated. And I can't see them


getting any kind of real change going anytime soon Ambrosio always been there is she thought I mean, this is very antiquated tanking. But Janet, I love the fact that you brought up Dobie. Because they're making some pretty aggressive may have shown right now. And you know, I think that the holding companies better look to adobe. About what the next generation of marketing could look like because adobe is already the best e of most creases 8 there.


I am if not the best day at least their first language. And you also gotta remember we have talked about things like Accenture and the Loyd, which already know remix centers up what 20 points already in comparison to their holding companies not very very pretty. But again, I think that we still have to look at the base line, and the baseline is there's not much left for them acquire to acquire. And I think that the VM L Y in our announcement actors indicative of that if they could play their game, they would have acquired another digital shop


equivalent to a VM L and launch something much bigger and much more interesting than maybe sort of swooped the wine are. Perhaps it struggling perhaps. It's not it depends on who you ask. Because there's a lot of millions of dollars in there in terms of of revenue into it to make it more attractive. But I think they're going to have to play this game. There's just no way the companies that are worth this amount of billions of dollars in the media space consume the sidelines. Go well, we have our model, and we'll just see what happens that out. These are smart people. Scott. What's your


position on what we've been discussing, and what are the benefits and liabilities advertisers about these kind of potential moves happening, and we will the advertising space become on a more effective. As a result of all these moves that are going on or will something half the break for things to get better. All you can count on something breaking before it gets better or of some break away. You know, making the new first at forces the hands of all the other holding companies and all


the other players. I think it's interesting, you know, most of the conversation as I've been observing here for the past few minutes has been circling around media media buying companies advertising and holding companies, but we veered away from the initial prediction that Galloway had which was in retail. And I think if you look at major retailers that have the ability to do this. They certainly Amazon makes a hell of a lotta sense with regard to snap and


particularly wine. Why why is that before you go further? Why would you say that Amazon is a particularly good fit for buying snap. And why snap would add anything to the the Amazon architecture. Because of of a few things 1 Amazon's growing advertising platform, which is is starting to break up the duopoly between Google and Facebook, that's something to be considered. The other is the integration. They just did with visual search


with a Snapchat meadow Google has visual search as well. But this lease right into, you know, taking a a piece of social media platform. Space and allowing people to simply shop by virtue of the picture that they take. And yeah, you could do that native way through the Amazon app at some point. I know your dad can with. A small pieces of household goods like screws, and you know, appliances and things like that. But this opens it just just


as voice search is being dominated by Amazon right now so can visual search be dominated. And if it's done, and I'm not saying through all of the social media companies, but snap and Amazon together make complete sense. I think a Pinterest of for the reasons that were mentioned before might make sense for 1 of the holding companies to to grab in this. This is not a 1 size fits all possibility here, the there are a lot of options out


there. And I think. You know, we we have to take each 1 of them as they come along. My my money is on Sears picking up my space. There's a [laughter] are both or either that are still around. But I think you know, you, you're right, Scott, the Illy. The only addition I put on that is that when I think of Amazon doing acquisition of Snapchat. I'm less thinking of them as the retail and more thinking about them as the third horseman right now and the media side, I totally agree with you there. I just


wonder if. The heat. That's being applied to those other verticals isn't more dominating to them. If I look at Amazon's acquisitions in the past little while snap believe or not seems little small for them. And not really on on not that there ever on vertical because they acquired whole foods and done some pretty wild stuff out there. But just in terms of what they seemed to be looking at and the dominance of this Amazon media services as it grows. I just feel like that's not did the


shortest play for them. I could see them doing a shop. I I am. I'm surprised. It wasn't Marchetto. I see them playing a more in that space than sorta binds public facing social networks right now. I think you're right down the road. But right now, it doesn't feel like what they're looking for. Well, didn't expect them and healthcare earlier this year, and they went there. That's what I mean. But that's I'm saying like, it seems like those are more interesting verte, even they did that the prefab home manufacturers this week. I feel it does make more sense in the sort of obvious like visible social networks


just maiming opposite. I respect and trust you and. But Galloway gave them until the end of next year. So I think you know as as it plays out. And as Instagram continues to hammer on snap in particular. We'll see how they struggled throughout the next year. We'll see what their numbers look like we'll see what the market says. No. Well, we're going to talk more about Amazon just a second. They announced their new retail solution, which is based entirely


upon customer preference. It's an interesting play, and we'll get to that in just a moment. But first. I want to tell you about a little company called linked in who is not on the acquisition block as far as I can see because they've already been acquired there are Microsoft company. Well, when it comes to marketing your business. I mean, let's face it. If you're out there, and you're in business, if you're doing B 2 B you have to be thinking about your marketing. And if you're thinking about marketing, it's all about reaching the right audience at the right time. Right.


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00:20:58 cast. That's linked cast for your free 100 dollar ad credit now, terms and conditions apply. You'll find them on the site. Remember linked in absolutely the best place to target your next campaign. And we thank them very much for the support of the show. Well, Amazon announced their latest physical retail play with a concept store built around 4 star products. The idea is simple. It's a store


that only sells the most popular items on their site. Janet is this concept revolutionary or ultimately not workable moon. What are the benefits, and what are the potential pitfalls that you see with this model? Yeah. I mean, I think it's very interesting. And I think at a time when. Other retail giants are having to cut back on their retail experiences. During dude it in efficiency is. This is clearly a very aware that seems to


be like it could be a an efficient retail environment. And I think they're probably playing into the dynamic where consumers are in store. And you know, if you're considering making a purchase 1 of the first things that you do is you look on the Amazon up to see, you know, to see what the reviews are. So I think in 1 sense, I really liked the idea. Of democratising the brands that are featured in a store. So rather than this kind of traditional store in store experience that's


controlled by the brand Amazon is creating is potentially creating an instructor experience that's driven by the consumer. So I think for a lot of consumers, especially those who are very busy this could be perceived as an elevated experience, but there's a there's a counterargument here. And I was recently having a conversation with an executive at TJ Maxx. And and she said that they've done a lot of psychological research to to see what drives in the the


consumer experience inside TJ Maxx and Marshall's locations, and she said that that you know, we have this. You know, we have this innate drive as hunter gatherers. That that justifies the in store experience where you're know. You're you're you're hunting basically for these these discounted items within their stores. So I think like in the fashion world, I'm not so sure that I see this Amazon experience working because I think people


do like to to search for for fines, but I think for for areas like home related items. I think it could be very effective. No. I remember. Back in the day. When I lived in Boston, and the original Filene's basement was there. And it was it was all. Deet based. So if if a piece of clothing had been there for a week, it was 25 percent off 2 weeks 50 percent off so on and so forth.


And now you really got good looking for the things that were there for 3 and 4 weeks. It seems to me that Amazon in this kind of storm model where they're looking at star ratings. They might be able to do some kind of a flash discounts tied to online activity or releases or however, they wanted to do it where they could actually. They could force. That kind of scavenger hunt. If you will inside some of these stores and capture that


that consumer behavior as a mezzo important to to to the retail experience fascinating. And it could also disrupt Aldi fast fashion brands, like forever, 21 and 18 and etcetera. Interesting brought to you or do they think that it's always about marketing. Do you? Do we always think that it's about a scavenger hunt of experience when we're talking about retail because I think that there are a lot of really great competitors. In that space on all levels of the economic


skill. And you've got the low end with your. You're you're hunter-gatherer instincts being driven in the overdrive at your forever 21 or you're each and am, and then you've got the Nordstrom rack level where you're going for more. Gone for discounts on higher end merchandise. But at the same time this isn't about discounting. This is about preference being expressed. This is about customer saying this is what we like. And this is not only what were were willing to talk about. But this is what we're willing to say


is really great product and put our reputation on the line. So in a lot of ways this could be about premium this could be about adding additional value to the retail experience. That's not that's kind of supersedes that hunter gatherer were out there to try to get the the best find the best detail. The best discount were out there to actually just get the best merchandise. Now, you've heard he totally Bobby. I I don't think that this is that all falling into the TJ Maxx category by a long shot. I think this


is a prototypical Amazon play only the best survives. The best stuff gets the top. What I find interesting is. This announcement coming very hot on the tales of the 3000 potential Amazon go stores, which are there. Sort of cashier less pay pay less be a payment less. A stores you'll pop in and out on Amazon, even with the acquisition a whole foods. You talked a bit about the servers looking more and more like a traditional retailer. They are using to me. This is all about data.


They're using this data to know where to be. I mean, if you think about really what is what is a retail retail is a big real estate play. They are figuring out exactly where they need to be for the right type of customer and the right type of size. I think this is a play that further pushes the logistics plan for them if they need facilities in a very densely populated area. Like, let's say New York City, why not have the front and be quality goods and products that people can come in and get. I I don't want to dismiss the power


prime here that offers free shipping and the subscription models at fall within that think even about the Amazon is a brand play with what they're doing with Amazon basics, which score very very highly in terms of people satisfaction. So it's another play to bring the basics brand that habit aligned with other brands that are competing very very well. I believe very strongly that this is a a big push for Amazon to truly demonstrate what ecommerce looks like in store, you go into the store you want to buy cable you want to buy something else. They don't have


everything you can order it. It'll be back your place by the time. You get there within the hour within the day. So I think this is more of a play of Amazon demonstrating not just brand dominance for some of the brands that will be featured in this 4 star up. Amazon store, but also the Amazon Brad dominance. And I think this stage 1 of them using data to test exactly how this place together. Match match. I agree. And you know, totally get you John it with the the people who liked it the search. But I think this is going in a hardcore


Amazon strength of efficiency and convenience. So if I want to find the best axe. Do make me for God's sake. Search online trip for 20 hours. I'm going to walk into the store I'm going to play with a little bit. So I could see some relatively high involvement products being really hot in this area. Because you wanna touch them you want to feel them you want to actually see Erkan ironically had they work with here. And they've done that for you in that situation. I think the big


game changer here. I had an interesting conversation with 1 of the largest U S retailers reason I was saying to him where's the tipping point? Where's the tipping point to be between retail and online, and what he said to me is rose. It's very very close. And what we're going to use online 4 is shortlisted, what should actually beyond the retail shelves. And that's exactly what Amazon is doing it. And we're the big branch be highly concerned is that there


are a lot of brands in in Cass grease that really stretch the globe. That are starting to. To creep up and surprise the larger brands because they've created this entire universe of communities online where you chat for cats. And they're the ones that the large stores are watching on Pinterest and saying, wow, this this productivity I've never heard of. And whose rep is never come to. Visit me is getting attention on


Pinterest. Let's check them. I. And so you're gonna find a lot of brands that previously felt kinda fun, Hoppy? Are going to have these guys coming from below who they've never even heard of before? But who have these online cult followings, and they're going to be what's featured in rural good their photo pushed further Bob sorry. Ira pushed a little bit further even. And think about what's happening right now. Most survey established legacy retailers know that whether they're selling


online or not they need an Amazon channel as well. So I think they're gonna sort of fall into that. They're gonna fall prey actually to the exact actor exact comments at Rosa. I think that that's a profound statement from that. Retailer the other side of it though that I don't think that this retailer is really thinking about paying attention to as the mass rise of these DT see brands. And the other thing that these stores are going to provide as a showcase his actually these annual Worby Parker hat to get physical at 1 point a Castro. Get physical 1 point. But until these brands do


this is going to be some major co op dollars coming into play here because he's brand store. Very highly. On the rating side, they're gonna wanna use Amazon as a channel to boo sales, and this is gonna be their little sidestep to be able to do physical retail. I wouldn't diminish the power of the D T C in this framework adult little, but a lot of what retailers 1 of the retail operations out there. Depend upon the brands to give them the special discounts for volt purchasing. So I mean for me, the the that seems to be the


weak link in this to build a store that's entirely built around customer preference. Which is gonna highlight a lot of these D T C brands that are not paying the big kickbacks in helping the retailers to kinda minimize that razor thin margin level that they have to deal with all the time. I don't know that this is completely sustainable for any other retailer except for Amazon, you know, and and it only works as a showcase it doesn't work as an opportunity to actually move product. As


much as it is to showcase brands and give you a chance to may be physically touch them physically lay on them. If it's a mattress physically used the product. And then go in do your research online in in continue the cycle moving retails on until the onto the web as opposed to dealing with it in the store. I am I wrong about that. I mean, it's dislike it seems like it this model doesn't work for anybody. But Amazon because of the


fact that the new the big brands are providing so much incentive to make sure that their front and center in that they're prominently displayed in retail environments. All brands will pay to play. I think that they certainly will if if the model proved successful, and I think it's a very different model in a world of Amazon because as much as they are cutting deals a traditional retailers have in terms of helping a big brands stock and make sure that there's the ability to ship their product faster to the consumers. I think it's a very very different


peace because they don't have the infrastructure of physical retail that they're paying for as the traditional retailers do and they're not beholden to those old models anymore. And again, I've got some inside scoop on some brands that are using Amazon is a major channel at the retail level. And a lot of these brands or even sort of. Hesitating twice about selling on their own as in a sort of why bother scenario because no matter what they're paying in terms of co-op and Amazon does force you to co op on a on media services. And I'm sure physical to


it's still worth it because their hands on, and there is no other retail to a lot of people with negate the whole idea about this being a user preference store because it, but it's what you're saying to me while it's based on user preference as long as that brand is willing to kick in some money for some display Iona. Let's sing that that all I'm saying Abbas going to approach them unless they've got 4 plus up, and when they approached them they're gonna make them pay to play I exit so legit. I dunno. It's gonna be massed. All so Janet, you're trying to get a


word in so [laughter]. All right now. It's all good. I do think that this environment is certainly going to benefit that the the Amazon private label brands, I think it's just a really tough time. Nubia a brand right now in general because like emits price cuts and private label. And it's like. You know, people people don't care about the brand itself anymore. And I I do I mean, I understand the concept of Amazon only offering the coop. Advertising in this type of retail environment to brand to of


4 stars and up. I just don't know how limited that is. Because I don't see brands participating in co op advertising if I don't see the model working if they don't have a for worst of 4 stars or or above just because the is dictating the experience. So. But I see it here, which is location location location. I I I think 1 of the things that we really have to look at is where


does Amazon could've put these four-star stores because as you know, I I live in university tack at what I'm seeing is whole foods his movie, get the Amazon distribution centers opened up here. Add you know, the vast we've seen at the university a 30 percent increase in all male because of Amazon prime. Okay. So what they're priming is an entire generation. To


be dependent upon them for their purchases. And I've seen this. As I go range, and I do my ethnography is that more and more of the people I walk into their homes, and it looks like they've recently just moved in. And I'm like, what's with all the boxes. And it's Amazon. So right now just just to be clear to everybody listening to the test is happening in SoHo. And it had very much pop up models, and no long term leases. And that's where I was going originally with this whole data will dictate the real estate, and because I agree that that's the


location location location. They'll just nowhere to be. I'm gonna hesitate to guess they're gonna go outside of heavy heavily populated urban areas. That are I think going gonna go to a place where they can ship. Someone fast to look within an hour. So to just to really add the volume 2 out of the they're gonna immediately start going out to the edges. I don't feel that up at my sense on this 1 match. Okay. I only go ride, and he said I I because I'm actually seen them targeting


university. Tines a variety of their difficulties and it's because they're they're priming a Marquette for long term life. Yes. So, you know, at they've set up the infrastructure all the needs. Ditch your point is pup pup the bloody thing. Well, we're going to move on. And we're going to talk next about second screen. Second screen advertising has been such a big buzzword for so many years. But apparently it's distracting people from the actual ads that they should be paying


attention to. We're gonna get to that and discuss whether that's a good thing or a bad thing in just a moment. But first a word from Admiral. After months of strategizing and prepping budgets and looking at how we're going to position ourselves in the market. I didn't have anyone to fall back on. And I remember pulling the lever for all those campaigns spiting, my nails and just staring at the computer pretty much the entire day. This was the moment where okay


we hired this guy to do exactly what he's saying. Now, it's up to him to deliver trying to figure out the best way to serve ads to our customers to me. It was a black box from Admiral came in and said, we should target these users at this cadence this frequency we doubled our revenue based on what we were projecting for November December succeeding after I put myself on the line like that. It does give me confidence to find out. How public and 37000 other brands grow their businesses with Admiral does it

00:37:29 cast. That's a D R O L, We'll emarketer presented findings that second screen efforts while effective in popular for brands ultimately diminished, the effectiveness of the first screen efforts. Which is an interesting finding. I'm not sure I completely understand it. But Scott while admittedly, this proves that digital mobile advertising


works. What does it say about creating 300 60 degree digital experiences that embrace the consumer 100 percent when it's distracting people by having so many screens talking to them. So what's your take on this situation? Well, speaking of popping up the bloody thing. I I suppose this is an example of be careful what you wish for. You know, in the 1 case, we we were


told with the advent of a YouTube when the social networks and all the rest that our television advertising should be driving people to a social experience or to a web based experience. And now that they're th-they're in. How do you get them back to the television? And you know, it's not just the calls to action that have driven. It's it's it's simple human behavior in. I watch my kids who are. You know, just inveterate


viewers of mostly YouTube and Instagram and will pop on a movie during family movie night and the second screens pop out, and it's not because they're looking to engage with any ads. It's just that's what they do. And if something gets boring during the movie, they're looking at their second screen, and you better bet that in an advertising medium, we have to be engaging. I you know, we've seen Google go all the way down to 6 second ads. I


and below but I don't know what it's going to take to get people to. Disassociate with what has become a simple human behavior? Whether it was a incurred by advertising in the first place or not while again, I don't necessarily incurred by advertising. I think the what it comes down to is that people was like he said there naturally drawn to these second screens. It's the content that they wanna involve themselves with. But I think that this


strive to have 3 60 experiences doesn't make sense when you're trying to get them to focus on 1 thing when you're trying to advertise when you're trying to market to someone you need their focus their attention, and it that doesn't come from flipping them from 1 screen to the next that comes from making what they're actually watching as compelling as possible. So that their attention is given to you that you're actually creating awareness or driving an action Mitch. Mitch, it's it's a very, it's a very flat footed. Argument


that these that the media companies are making they're they're they're basically saying that because people are distracted. It's limiting our success. And I think what's actually happening is a bigger challenge. And the challenges. I see it as quite simply this we've seen media sales. As placement equals the premium you pay. And I believe that the new premium should be on attention more. The attention is not placement at all. And so if you take that as


a thought, it's gonna be it's gonna play out even in mobile, and you know, we we could we know by the simple technology these devices if that screen is upside down forward of someone's holding you're looking at it. They can even test for basics symptoms of L S based off of where the phone is. And how it's shaking and or being held. So I think that there's going to be of more macro shift. That's going to happen. Very soon. I've seen some pretty amazing technology in that space to make that argument that placement will not pay the premium that premium will be paid by attention. The other thing I would


tell you on the sort of 3 60 is it's 300 60 degrees of stupidity. Because if you think about media channels like radio print or TV, they are fundamentally passive for the consumer they're just passively taking in the content. If you move to the second screen, which is typically a mobile, it's a laptop it's a tablet. These are active platforms. And your engagement in the media format and how you engage in both with the content and the


advertising is fundamentally different. By the way, we could rewind this and go back to the early 2 thousands. When I was talking very specifically about this. How the the fundamental failure online advertising, the sepia model is off the fact that they were creating very passive types of engagements these banner ads in what are active channels people were trying to actively. Search click do built create and we are just let me interrupt you with an ad. That's very very passive. Yes. You could click through if you wanted a landing page, but that's not the real engagement. And so it isn't that exactly that's


going on? So they're talking about cross device targeting as if it's in vogue, but it's not because it's a terrible user experience 'cause they're not bracing the active and or the passes. I or no ego. Lovey. Yeah. I was just going to say I mean, the upside with the active engagement on the second screen is is so great in comparison to the passive engagement with the first screen that it's worth the distraction because for the advertiser y-, you know, with the second screen, you're not only deepening the


consumer engagement, but it's also a great way to learn about your audience because you're collecting more data on them. So that really really seen that be true, by the way, if if you think about like search why because you're already actively searching for something. So when the ad comes up. It's part. It's symbiotic to the experience. Also, Email would be another example you signed up for some of your proactively willing to take it in. And as a comes in you're consuming media the same way you can't otherwise on on regular online advertiser mobile advertising.


Total flop gone [laughter]. What everybody's missing is that this is not the second street. Yes. This is the first screen. And it is the primary St.. And the moment that primary screen starts delivering something it will win over what ever the other screen is. That's not traveling with that human being in an


extension of their own behavior. Unfulfilled Lagarde grew. I've started the disagree with a characterization of booth the mobile screen as being the first screen or the TV being the full story. The first screen is whichever screen you're paying attention to whichever hold your attention at that moment because people are different. Although you've not everybody is in the same type of activity and to call 1 the first screen for all audiences makes 0 sense. It really comes down


to where is the attention being given. And that's the screen that needs to be focused on. And I think it goes back to mitch's point. But it's like we need to start. Characterizing advertising not based on placement in time. But based on whether or not the attention is being given to that particular screen at any given moment, but I'm sorry. I I had a nice spot. But let's see what your point the make. I'm sorry for interrupting but I had to get on my soapbox for that. 1. It's okay.


That the thing I've been doing a social experiment here at the hash. Okay. Just you know, watching when somebody's gonna turn on the big scraped, and I've got 3 big screens. In my case. I'm not 1 of these people just let them run. It's been 6 months. It's been 6 months everybody. Here's on their phone. They're watching everything on their phone. My daughter turn dawn the tally because there was a Penn State games. But you know is


like a time. I, but this is what I think we we need to start looking at is, you know, to your point Mitch attention, absolutely. But nothing has the connection with us. Like our phone starts who phones. Do I'm sure he got that was bad English because they are now literally ourself quantification. Devised. They are an extension of our senses. And


I've been to plenty of homes doing my ethnography is going up, meaning the people and the wallpaper is the big screen. This thing is constantly running in the background. You have to tell people to turn the bloody thing off. It's not polite. You know, but it's it's ambient noise. Now. And that involvement that intention level is really not given to it at all it has become this grey zone. And absolutely there. Probably a couple of


generations. Now who are gonna sit down in front of it and all the rest of it. But I think the really important thing for all of us to note is this shift away from the big screen at except for shuttled appointments with it, and otherwise it becomes almost like wallpaper like this little friend in the room that's making noise. So you're not alone. But you're not really paying attention to it. It's it's actually your your partner after 40 years of marriage


is what books so basically, you're not to further the officers because there's the recent data that I actually just tossed into a recent presentation that that did the did sort of validate some of this conversation, which is and again, hoping though not misquoted I'm trying to put up as we speak here. But it was something like 89 percent. Usage of mobile devices in home on its way to toppling T V is the dominant screen. Yep. So I I think that this idea of even a big added than the


background it might that might be fee. I wish I could pull this piece of data because of a what I'd share with you. But there's a general consensus that even the sort of wallpaper model almost irrelevant to to to to the value of it because it speaks to the fact that they're again, it's limited success because it's completely distracted by everything else. So who cares on or not who cares world in? I think this conversation goes much beyond whether or not TV's still relevant whether or not it's background noise. Because this goes into the whole 3 60 degree.


Strategy as a whole and looks at it in a very critical light. You know, we we could have a live event on the quad at a major university. And if it's activating some kind of mobile device is it taking away the opportunity to connect with people in a real world environment in favour of dealing with this mobile device, which has so much attention already. You know, it's it's just kind of


calls in the question. This idea that we need to engage people veal all their devices all the time we need to flip from screen to screen with them. We need to flip from experienced to scream from online to off line. It seems to me that the the more important thing is to get their attention and keep their attention on the on the screen or the action or the activity that they're doing right now. And if we're not doing that were not effective. Yep. The problem with that is the sort of active passive model, which


I know gets people excited when I talk about it. The problem is on mobile or tablets. You can be both. And then the model for being passive on mobile is typically, you know, let's call the YouTube. Let's call it a net flicks YouTube, if you look you YouTube premium suddenly the way in which you even in just passive advertising changes because the model of the interruption of the ad doesn't really float in that. And you saw that a little bit in the pushback when net flicks star testing, some of those


little commercials, you see them people wanting to move to pay for a little bit a month to have, you know, their own sort of control over this. And I think that that consumer habituation is going to be more disruptive them whether V is relevant or not it's more about who cares. If TV's relevant or not the question is how are they consuming passive video. And if the answer is in these type of type of platforms like mobile, which it looks like or or tablets, their expectation of consumer of advertising consumption is fundamentally different and that


causes the same problem. We had back in the 2 thousands again getting back to banner ads and website. Where we got a role this indoor less topic of the evening. The founders of Instagram have officially parted ways with parent company. Facebook highlighting rumors of dissatisfaction over the direction that the photo sharing site has been taking. Rose does Facebook need to be more concerned about their moves on their fastest growing platform. I mean, this is obviously a crown jewel of the Facebook portfolio


right now does it spell any kind of potential problems down the line that the founders themselves of walked away from this. I think that that what it really I it oh Instagram will continue and Facebook will continue to pay for its advancements, etc. I think the bigger issue. Facebook needs to face is Mark just got back from this tour of the United States talking to their consumers. I think boyfriend needs to


turn around and talk to some of the people in his own office. No. Because the first for them in the what's up founders of walked away from so Anamar, plenty of walked, okay? And for a man who stars it 1 of the most innovative products. That's you know, shape, the world's he really does know how to work with other innovators. And what's each of them has cited was a come on


board. They think that they're going to be there with a like minded peer they start. You know, they want to continue that innovation or their passion or their mission. However, you wanna say it, and they find that that door is shot. And they feel stymied. And all of a sudden all of these other issues are coming into play that these people were very purposeful mission driven people go, wait a minute. This is not why I created this product in the first place or why I'm focusing


my energy on creation in the first place. I met at a pool hall took a really contrarian view. Here these mix, you know, I think I've been through acquisitions, and I can tell you 6 years is a really long time kudos to those 2 for sticking out. Sixers Whistler Leary. Few founders founders stick through a 6 years post anything that's a lifetime. These are young peoples. We're talking about a big chunk of their lives. You know, there's a dissatisfaction really disatisfaction stories was introduced


videos were introduces they acquired they've had huge growth. They've been able to because of that infrastructure be able to beat. Midst of religion. It is a ramp for a while. They've got out alot, my you're you're you're you're about his did talking [laughter]. So, you know, I if you talk about the dissatisfaction with problems, you know, we don't like ads we don't like data. Well, that's what they were bought for. They were bought for data and targeting. They bought them


primarily, especially Instagram because at the time, they were mobile I and dominating on photos, which was a place where Facebook was challenged with because they were still very much transitioning from desktop to mobile. I, you know, I look at this and go what did they expect Facebook paid a 0 dollars for them? And that 0 dollars has turned into pure gold for them a 0 users. Neither Atta I think they're do something like a 0 doll-. I it. They're there to basic pendant dollar per user at this point, which is good. This is going to be


6000000000 dollars in revenue this year. The analysts are calling by 20 20 this could be 20000000000 dollars Instagram, which should be a quarter of Facebook's current revenue. I look at this. And I go, I don't know. Yeah. I think the 2 of them are just. Basically saying we've done our time. And it's time for Steve sub take our money and run, but you sulfur 0 dollars to Facebook. And you don't expect data targeting and ads than you're the fool. Yeah. I totally agree with that. I mean, the average founder only as the acquirer for less than 3 years anyone and has been 6 years, and founders


tech founders are just. Inherently autonomous curious individuals. So I think there were. To end. This has already been said, basically. But there were 2 dynamics at play here. 1 is that the founders don't like to see their baby sustaining, you know, they don't they don't want to feel like the acquirer is turning it into a a soul kind of revenue engine. And forgetting what the what the what the purpose of the operas for users which was to enjoy and


Instagram's case like to enjoy and share photography. But the second time a dynamic was that they're just probably board at this point like they've accomplished everything that they could accomplish there, and it's time to move on. And do something new. Well, part of the rumblings. I've heard having been someone who is inside of a big corporation like it. Absolutely see this is that the founders weren't given as much autonomy as they thought and that Instagram in particular was being treated like a division of Facebook, rather


than like its own independent, a standalone within the company, and and that rectum, and you know, they they wanted to continue pushing it a certain way, we all know, the the what's up soap operas, it's played out. But to to Mitch his point, you know, when you get paid this much money, you do you do automatically give up some of that autonomy, and you know, kudos to them for seeing it through this far and for making the moves that they did. But what will really be interesting to see what they've got


on the docket next. Yet. Even the what's the what's up news, really young aggravated me. After an acquisition of the of what was it? 19000000000 dollars for him to say, this is not what I expected what you would give you 19000000000 dollars for data access and the ability to target these people that is the business model though in shied away from it now whether or not Mark is a great coworker or great team builder. I think it's almost a separate a separate discussion because it's very


different when you're quired versus when you're working for them. And I don't think that any of these founders have afoot to unless they start handing money back. Which by the way, I do, you know, the WhatsApp founder left 850000000 dollars on the table. Well, it's kind hearted kind of not feeling bad for the guy after a 19000000000 dollar acquisition agree with you at his. I thought his commentary was offensive like he was, you know, urging consumers on Twitter to delete Facebook. It's just ungrateful.


But I think you should believe his Bank account and give him my. But it it causes an interesting question because you see this rise of Instagram where you know, it's got a whole generation behind Ted Facebook kind of. Coming 10 with regards popularity. You know, what if you're not most popular kids in the room anymore? And but you you're still the 1 with the Wally. Uber. 2013 to go back to 2013 when a Facebook when Snapchat


Sonoda Facebook for the 2 or 3000000000 dollars at that moment in time you had Snapchat dominating 49 percent. There's and I have this data clay speak about it. A lot of the entire photo sharing space as previously or you got member it's 2000 and whatever it is said, it was 2013 Snapchat Instagram with 7 percent and Facebook was basically the rest, I think I think flicker had 1 percent at that point or something minimal like that. And so the truth is is that the time incident was in a very precarious situation. I really think the


people forget that Instagram was not that much when it was acquired by Facebook, David experienced their growth, and their popularity partly because of this acquisition and their ability to really, push Snapchat. Back on their heels is is is is is he got them. Right. Completely connected to Facebook power. Well with that it's time for the Advil 5, but before we get to that segment of the show. I do wanna take this quick opportunity to thank my guest again. And allow them the each to a shameless plug starting with


rose Cameron. She is a consultant for higher you can find her on winked in. But tell us what's going on in your world rose. What would you like to promote? Well, I have become a in in the absence of Jimmy using a mobile phone the human mobile phone for Martin Lindstrom, as you probably know and Ariana Huffington have a wage that he can live without when he does because I carry 1. So I'm working with him all over the world.


It's been an amazing adventure. And I actually am so incredibly fulfilled right now. I cannot even began. So if there are companies 8 there who are interested in actually, you know, reintroducing themselves to their customers and understanding why their customer sites ratings have dropped by double digits, and they're interested in bringing them back up through innovation. Please.


Look at Martin contact him, and you can be assured that both Martin and I will work on your projects both zones. Really great for it took that out. Next up. We have Janet komo's you can find her at spotted.U S, that's the home of celebrity research car a firm spotted which I will let Janet till you about and let her do all the promotion. She would like so ticket away. 10. Thank you, Bob. I'm the co founder and CEO of spotted. I founded the company about


3 years ago, we've been named the authority in the celebrity research space by outlet like ad week, Forbes CNBC and more than 50 others, and we assess the risk profile of celebrity talent. And then based on more than a 0 proprietary metrics. We measure the alignment between a celebrity and a brand. And it's it's fascinating. Because especially over the last 12 months the risk component has become a very core tenant of our offering just because given


today's social climate in the wake of metoo every little move the celebrity endorsers make is so highly scrutinized. So thank you for having me. Mitch Joel you can find him at 6 That's the home of. Well, I'm not sure what this is the home of. It's the home of a podcast is the home of a couple of podcasts. Probably it's home of his speaking engagements is the home of a lot of things. So tell us what's going on in your world. Mitch what would you like to promote?


Let's think you just did it. Thanks [laughter]. This 1 for punishment. I've got 640 episodes of 6 pixels of separation still going every Sunday. I published an interview with somebody entrusting dynamic or somebody's gotta interesting book out. I still right at a frenetic pace over there, and basically any but he's interested in anything. That's come out of his mouth feel free to go to 6 And there's a lot more it there. Unfortunately for some people [laughter]. Yeah. It's always


a great site. So I definitely recommend it and last, but not least Scott Monty you can find him. It's Scott That's the home of Scott Monty strategies, really really great to see what you're doing over on your site, Scott and all the things that you're doing in the newsletter and all the other ways that you keep in touch with people. So tell us what's going on in your world. What would you like to promote? Well, thanks, Bob. Yeah. Having recently reestablished, my soul. Consultancy?


I am working with brands and executives on just helping them to move at the speed of customers. But also keeping a solid view on the past. You know, everybody gets distracted by shiny objects. My like to keep people focused on a true north, and I do that through a lot of historical and literary allegory said to everybody can understand. And a lot of times at creeps its way into my newsletter and podcast on the the full Monty. And not not that your listeners need another podcast to listen to. But it's


only 5 minutes a week. It's designed to be short and concise to save you time just like the full Monty newsletter on my show is designed to waste a lot of a lot of time. So we kind a book and each other. We've got an hour. You got 5 minutes. Yes. Scott stuff is really amazing. Should definitely check it out. He's 1 of the best when it comes to analysing and offering insight into the the marketing and business world. So definitely check out his stuff as for me. For more information about or the show. Visit the being

01:02:29 there you can find a complete show archive can find out how to consult with me, and you can even find out how to advertise on the program. So check it all out at the being Don't forget transcription is now available for the being cast. You can find it on the site. And our partner. Transcribe is offering a special deal to anybody out there who would like transcription services. Just check it out a cast. And you can get some transcription services done.


Now, it's time for the Advil 5 or run down to the lowest moments in advertising marketing and public relations from the last week, and I stop the battle between brands and their media agencies rose just got a whole lot stickier. It's gone. Federal there's a federal probe into the matter. Now over this whole thing about kickbacks to media agencies and every other kind of transparency issue that happened over the last few years. So is this the thing that the holding companies need to


worry about besides the fact that their stock prices all took a hit because of it? Oh, yeah [laughter]. Yeah. I think a there. There have been several cases of large brands leaving their agencies because they've questioned the kickbacks, and and the ambiguity behind, you know, how agencies make money show. Yeah. Watch this space. I think is going to be really interesting. Yeah. It's not the first


time that these agencies have been investigated. It was 2 years ago they were investigated because of rigging of the commercial contract. So every time they get investigated. They lose trust with their appetizers. This has happened in other parts of the world. And now it's coming here. Well, next up. Apparently, you can't see anything you want. When you're a CEO, Scott. That's what young Ilan mosque is finding out the hard way as the SEC formalized their call to remove him from tesla over


fraud allegations. Now, I heard that the board is completely behind him and supporting him. It's doubtful that he will be forced out. But there is the possibility of criminal choice. It was on the news right before Bob, no way down is chairman, not CEO, and he's paid the SEC 20000000. Oh funding secured. Wow. So while it's just like talk about an ad fell became true immediately


[laughter]. It just goes to show you the ROI of social media [laughter]. The most humiliating part though, is that he used in his tweet us the number 4 20 which is the annual cannabis holiday to try and impress his girlfriend is a pop star Grimes. So. How sad how sad next up weight. Watchers responded to the wellness trend by rebound


rebranding, as w w Mitch the only trouble is the CEO in an interview couldn't seem to explain what the new w w logo actually stood for. We know. It doesn't stand for Weight Watchers, and we know it doesn't stern for whatever their new slogan is. So what the heck are they doing here? Stumbled. He couldn't figure out if it's wonder woman or World War. He got confused. I think it's a clever co branding experiment with Buffalo Wild Wings who has dropped


[laughter]. Supposedly, it's wellness that works guys. Yeah. No, no. She she said though, didn't right. MIR? Is there is a little Weight Watchers, Bob [laughter]. Bob's counting points right now. That explains wrong going to move onto the next topic because that's closer to what I actually consume beer. An American beer brewer


scofflaw announced on Twitter that in partnership with U K brewer brew dog. They would get you K drinkers beard up redneck style completely free of charge. But there is a hook. You have to be a Trump supporter. Unfortunately, Janet bread. Brewed all knew nothing of this plan and responded that scofflaws beer would be sent back and then scofflaw through their PR agency. Frank under the bus saying, it was all their fault may had no knowledge that this was actually happening.


This is 1 of the biggest little PR disasters. I've heard of in a long time. It seems like nobody can get to the bottom of why this tweet went out and the effects of been just devastating for them. So what's your take on this 1? Yeah. I mean at a bare minimum it definitely sounds like scofflaws PR agency Frank needs better management protocols because this thing gold junior Cipa employees, supposedly of a pretty well established PR firm was able to put together that


idea, you know, come up with the idea dropped a press release distributed to several 0 journalists, and there was never any internal or external approval. So they need to fix that [laughter]. Don't walk. I keep saying that the agency model is fundamentally changed. I don't think it's changed at all. Here you go through the agency under the bus. There's your model [laughter]. And quite frankly, the fact that this child's door, it was a single Rick who would actually be a Trump supporter, blues my


mind [laughter]. Low lease Unilever CEO, Paul. Pullman was on a panel this past week too. Sure about his company's commitment to conscious capitalism. When another panelist pointed out that the company is still marketing skin lightening products in India, rose, you know, I read this. And I just like, whoa. You know, it's just like you. They had to have known. This was coming in terms of the questions. It. Yeah. Now, if


I remember correctly, though, the the ad that they put a era was was a a pretty old. I'd buy a even. So you gotta say, do, you know, if you're gonna be committed to these things it can not be in the age of digital? You've got to research at at and actually see what of your portfolio is laughing directly in the face of what you're say. And be ready


for it. I actually thought he pulled out pretty quickly. And and he did a rather good job. But even so, you know, these people who go for a purpose, built brides and conscious consumption all the rest of it. They really got to look at their own companies. I. Roll have something to add to this list or just want to discuss it common online. Use the hashtag add fell 5. Let's pound Advil and the number 5. Will that does it


for this week's show if you'd like to have? Subscribe to this podcast. Visit our website at the being and click on the subscribe link if you're an listener, we've also provided a direct link to the I team's music store or just search for the being cast in the podcast directory of vitamins, and whichever podcast directory you use when you subscribe, please leave us a review got a comment have a question we'd love to hear from you just send your emails to being cast a gmaiLcom opening theme was


performed by. Joe Saibul closing theme by C Jax. Thanks for listening. I'm Bob nork will be back again next week. Hope you'll join us then


slide, she's exactly.




Cool beans.