BeanCast Transcripts

BeanCast 518 Transcript

BeanCast 518: Incremental Digital

Date: 05-Nov-2018

Input sound file: 0518_The_BeanCast_Marketing_Podcast_Incremental_Digital

Transcription results:



This episode of the bean cast is brought to you by linked in. When you advertise on linked in you can build lasting relationships with customers that often translate to high quality leads website traffic and higher brand awareness for our free 100 dollar linked in ad credit. Go to linked cast, terms and conditions apply. Bandwidth provided by recruits of squirrel. Interactive transcription services provided by Visit them on the web at transcribe

00:00:30 cast for up to 25 percent off. That's transcribe Episode 500 18 incremental digital.


For Monday, October 29 2018 it's time for this week's edition of the be cast a weekly discussion about the news and issues. Facing marketers today host Bob door. Thanks for joining us as difficult as it is for many of us to comprehend digital transformation continues to baffle much of the


business world leading to tentative that unproductive initiatives. So is it a matter of ripping off the band-aid and diving in head first. Tonight. We'll discuss also whether we're on the cusp of an international tech backlash. The increasing importance of visual search social selling today. Plus this week's at fell 5 that's the lineup. Let's me tonight's panel.


Thanks for joining us for this week's being cast. I'm Bob nork in with me on the panel for this evening. We start with the principle of digital production resource company the antipodean, MS Michelle excel. Hi, Michelle happening, Bob. It's been a while back. Yeah. Glad they can make it this week. Now. Also, joining us we welcome back, the founder of 6 pixels group, author speaker, Mr. Mitch Joel I met,


you know, I'm gonna say a [laughter] you gotta you a trademark you've got to do with it [laughter]. Man. Right. The max she's the director of consulting at explain MS Holly, Noto, Holly. You've got promoted. This is fantastic news. Thank you for having me. And finally, we have the president of spark media solutions. Mr David spark,


Mr David spark. You did not get a promotion. I'm sorry to say you're over the top dog. Hi, I'm already top bananas [laughter]. Well, let's jump right into the topics, and I stop I was reading a piece from McKinsey on digital transformation and 1 of their thoughts really really stuck with me that incremental approaches to digital transformation simply don't work. Now, there's a lot to this essay. But essentially digital approaches are so at odds with traditional business


processes that all that only an all in approach can actually have any kind of effect in the end, so Holly. Do you agree with this premise is suspect because it's a consultancy here saying this, and obviously this is what they trade in or is this high carrying some married here. This statement. I have to admit when I read this. I thought to myself, oh, I'm just going to hate this and disagree with all of it. Not because I on principle of MacKenzie MacKenzie has pretty good stop. But I just didn't think I liked


the idea that incremental wasn't the way to go and I read through it. And my first impression was they got a lot of stuff, right? From our experience at explain in my experience working in you know, companies that have to turn a pretty large ship into the digital environment. They picked up on stuff that we picked up on mismatch. You know, the business model doesn't fit the digital model. It's going to take a new approach to digital transformation or transformation efforts entirely will


have to do that. They know things like the inertia that usually you have inner transformation effort is caused by the people who have the most power because it runs afoul with what they are doing and how they got their power so much of what they had to say in. This was right. And I had to admit it. I think where I started to really start to separate myself from their their recommended approach was not that I didn't do that. I disagree. I should say with the idea that you have to you know.


You have to work with executives. You've got a really work through the human side of change. And then you've got a, you know, kind of take the big big leap in order to get the big big return on digital. I think that's all right. That's correct. But the problem is that it's untenable. It's almost on possible and unlikely it at the same time. So where we see a lot of Woody biomass untenable, and unlike what specifically you're referring to the size of most organizations that are going through digital change right now


is pretty big see look at the ones the size of major financial institutions or you look at large retailers and m for them tick, a work digital transformation across all their different divisions or functions or even operational groups is really challenging that's where they're all really running into the inertia and the slowing down right now. And what we're seeing is that they're trying to do it. You know in these incremental ways like I'm just going to do it in his pocket around this process. I'm just going to do it around his particular business


group. And and that's the way most transformation efforts work as they sort of take themselves through an incremental change and McKinsey was right to say nobody's really getting the full benefit now digital transformation because they're doing it in pockets. And and we totally agree. I think where I think it's unlikely to happen or feels impossible. Moore was organizations is that. They're still trying to do it. And they're still trying to figure out. Well, how do I do it all once? And it's the people side people don't really


love change. They don't love giving up their domains of power or influence or the territory that they've earned over time. So. I I gotta say while I agree with them. I think it's not going to change. Does that make sense does reimburse question is what I took away from this article was the big. But is that whenever you have inertia with an organization at the top. You're not going to be


able to affect change in incremental approaches. Just don't really have any lasting impact. The seam. It's it seemed like a no brainer. What what they were saying? But at the same time, I I take to heart. What you're what you're claiming? You know, it's the site that these organizations are so big the processes and the tasks are so huge. That there's no likelihood that anybody's going to go all in in jump in disrupt their entire business without some kind of incremental approach


to it and put put in the plot as as has been said in has whether it's been crackly your incorrectly, quoted to Mark Zuckerberg, if they don't do you do not disrupt yourself someone else will and I cannot stress that enough so much evidence of this and did all the time by they digitally transforming mostly because that's how they start. They don't have anything legacy. That's doing it


and entire industries get display some, you know, there's endless evidence of this. So. It takes us cigarette for them to move. And if they don't feel threatened yet, they will be threatened soon enough, and it may be way too late. In fact, I'll go so far be probably too late that happened. So they need to realize that the threat is there and more importantly misses the part that I want to stress because things move digitally. They can move


laterally. Meaning your next competitor is not even currently in your industry. And that's the thing you really gotta be scared about. Sean, I'm sorry. I was just going to say to build on that. We're seeing a huge trend of where the biggest in nearest competitors used to be was in the same scale. Or the same market as you. But what we're seeing? Now, it has much more to do is when the competitor was born meaning the born in the cloud, the millennial competitor is the 1 that started off


digital that already had different business models, and and literally ways of working across the operating model. So that they weren't functioning like old school hierarchies and functional silos, and that's really where the nearest competitor is coming from. It's it's not your. You know, it's not your competitor can 20 years ago or 30 years ago. It's the new guy who's getting bigger and was born in the cloud or born in the digital era. And they've already solved throw those problems of change because they're already there. I also think though incrementally.


Businesses small medium, large B B, your be to see. We're really able to approach it more of a bandaid solution because they were building off of these technological infrastructures that they had IT teams servers things like that. But you're right that as we move to the cloud becomes this sort of strange friction between legacy systems that we have decades of investment in verses software service and paying a late fees per month. And on the


back end this the software's auto updating, and we everything it needs to do to be permanent. Also, even ecosystem within that. We are developing on top of it. So I think you know, you can't dismiss speed speed is really important. I think it's harder for a start up to really triple quadruple passed an incumbent, especially if they're really really strongly situated, you see that for sure in the digital space where psych the the running joke is like who's really competing with that who's really competing with Facebook who's really complaining with Amazon, and they sort of built


these moats around whatever their business models are and how laterally they move. I totally agree with David on that. But I think to me when I when I look at it, it feels more like it's legacy versus cloud. It feels more to me that it's what we have an internal team. And we've invested in this verses can we do this now externally with all this water, cloud based software that that's out there. We can can work on. And you know, it's funny. If you think about. How transformations happen? A lot of people applaud Facebook for major pivot when they really invested went


all in on mobile. But you could also make the argument if you were there at that time, and I was it was actually quite incremental. I mean, they had made many steps added until 1 point where I just think the data was so pure to Zuckerberg in the team that they had to go more full bore. But they actually did approach what many of us. He is 1 of the bigger digital transformation and quite an incremental way. Actually when you look at it. And so I think you're right, Bob, if there is a lot of consultancy rhetoric. I thought it was well written. I didn't sort


of jaw drop and go. Wow. This is ingenious coal. But I think he downplayed the power of this cloud technology held light and nimble that just allows every single business to be. It's staggering. I was surprised by how much I enjoy his article. I think I had the same reservations thinking that a guy that is going to be spouting there yet traditional consulting rhetoric. But it touched on so many things that I consult on goes all sounds like similar


data to Holly. And so many things I'd written before things that I have been with, you know, screaming at the top of my hung. So the last few years old, right? Correct. We would you like this article because it agreed with new highlight this revolver. And I love it. There were a couple of really snot things in here. I think that nobody has been playing up that cross disciplinary group to avoid fragmentation point enough. I really enjoyed that.


That's such a critical part of this. So it can seem insurmountable. But the way that I approach consulting when we're talking about, you know, the new revelation of immersive technology, you know, beyond digital. Straight digital is. Where do we stop? Will you stop with the pilot? And that's exactly what they're saying. In this article, as well, you know, you don't have to have all figured out. You don't have to have the blueprints and then implemented they just saying that you need to cut deep shake the foundations get by in stock with the big picture


get buy in on that. Then go incremental. They're not actually saying go incremental. They're just saying don't start in 1 place isolated from another place. Isolated from not because you have many wins or fails. And you'll have no knowledge building. Exactly, no, no sharing and building. And so I really liked that the cross disciplinary thing. I think there's definitely something in that cut deep. Get leads from each discipline. And then this other thing in the article was was really great the looking at those


3 pillars. You know, the financial risks of not evolving. The financial opportunities all revolving. And looking at current waste and that had the hottest as is as the hot how much of businesses just choosing the road incremental mic. I because again, and again from what I'm hearing from this conversation. It comes down to communication in that the organization is sharing and learning from each other and growing together toward some kind of digital future. And for me


that seems like the first planned the digital incremental incremental stuff that any organization he's the take is to improve the digital communications within the organization. I. And then start the outward facing digital digitisation of processes. An intent looking internal is is a really great way of looking at it. I've actually heard a lot of a lot of chatter from friends recently who had left. Companies that


seemingly on the outside are evolved digitally, come make suddenly make incredible digital products, even most of technology products and big any IOT, and is space and all the rest of it then leaving because outwardly everyone's telling them what an amazing company they work for an inwardly. They're still dealing with legacy process. And so I think that starting internal is an amazing way and often if you can if you can isolate identify and went on a pilot that's for internal process first before you


take that step outside. It's a great way for everyone to learn. And I think that I like that. And I think it's a great way to reduce risk. I mean, 1 of the 1 of the things we re that we wanted to cover on this topic was what are the risks that you need to focus on her? How do you manage the risk? And I think when you take a pilot project program or approach and you start internally you run into all the bumps and jumps that you're gonna hit along the way. But you're not doing it out in public. You're learning it internally in your teaching and internally, and that's 1 of the first pieces of information or advice, I should


say that we we tend to lean towards which is. Can you do this in a way that teaches you a lot teaches you this much in short space of time? And gets you a to return that you can go applied, more broadly or more externally. So I I'm I'm with Michelle. I surprised myself by really agreeing with so much of the principles that were talked about a year, and it was refreshing. Because I wanted to say that it was consultant speak, but it was actually really well formed advice for if I serve listen


to the conversation. We're having its swayed away from the idea of. The article which is go bigger, go home, and we're talking about bringing it in currently doing small doing tests. But were the crux of it was go bigger go. Their point point point is clear. The point is clear that the the the really can't have a digital transformation in increments that you need to embrace it fully before you've truly get the benefits. But I don't think that the article necessarily was saying, maybe I'm


wrong. But it the I don't think it was saying that you need to go big or go home as much as it was saying. The you need to start embracing this digital transformation in every aspect of your company before you're going to start seeing success. And I think it's more about mitigating expectations rather than saying that you're supposed to be going for all in blow up your entire company. In Bob that takes much deeper issue that when you guys were talking about communication. It's about it. A culture


issue is this an organization that embraces the need to innovate or tensely company survival. The need to understand what competition is out there in your current. Spe said who could move laterally because. Other organizations like what are the organizations that have gone digital that have the money that could conceivably infiltrate us who would have thought Amazon would all of a sudden be a competitor to cable will cable should've


known that. Because they all they would have to do is look at who are the organization dinner most digital right now. And that's what you need to look at who are the organizations that are most digital that. Essentially moving laterally in car business would be a snap for them. And it was I mean, well, what are we speaking versus trying to launch multiple launch an entire cable network for that 1 of the things that I noticed that a lot of businesses. Do maybe the group can comment on this is


instead of just blowing up all processes within the organization, they started a business unit that is completely digital. And they allow it to grow in the nurture it and they make it. So that it either by us Moses, or by you know, Darwinism that as the pilot organization that pilot unit within the bigger organization can affect change is is that something that you see being very successful tactic Collier. Is that something that is just a showpiece for a lot of companies to say, hey were


digital. I think it depends on how you do it. If you're truly doing it to gain the benefit or to create some efficiencies of scale later on. So that you can then lifted out and apply it and the adjacent. Either processes or products that you have great. That's a great idea. Because if you really have the full intent to use it as a pilot and then. Go through distribution model. Learn adjacency model where it starts to just spread across the company using what you learn great. But you want to avoid that sense of a spinout


always spun this group out, and then they become a bit too isolated from the rest of the organization, and they become those people who do things differently. And that's where you risk the most. I think what loss in terms of your return on that investment. Because I think David you said it, it's a cultural issue. You want to make sure that you're not so far apart or so separated from the rescuer position that the cultural lessons learned and the ways of working get lost in that sort of being put in your own little microcosm. So there's a risk. You got to have a


plan to transfer. You gotta plan a plan to. Grow and evolve and have it touch everything. That's adjacent to it in a very strategically planned out way. If you don't do that, if you sort of run it on a let's see what happens basis, you're not gonna get a lot of transfer back into the larger organization. Another 1 1 approach for doing it rather than calling it a digital team or even a digital transformation team is calling it an integration team. So there aren't many departments within any company that


really see things into wind fully holistically. And that's 1 of the reasons I think that digital transformation will digital adoption in general have a hard time because digital inherently as a lot more integrated. I think personally speaking and until the about within a advertising and marketing company, but what I found is having some people who that I like the the idea of an external team will task force or whatever it might be. But it


should I think it's cooling it integration is maybe a less. The alarming would call it or something like that less typical because it really is about integration. At the end of the day getting everyone on the same page. No 1 last thing any of us or suggesting that you need to throw out all old processes that some old processes or actually effective, right? Mitch. I mean, it's just like any kind of digital transformation is not about making the old go away completely.


It's more about saying what works what does in in. How can we grow into this new digital future? It's a in this process of evaluation is key to making that transformation. It's also about what works and how you scale and thinking about Tom Goodwin from have awesome. As infamous sort of quote about the world's largest car company owns no cars. It's uber. The world's largest retailer Alibaba owns no stores and and on and on. It's it's it's that sort of quote, we never tribute in. But everyone's steals and


uses to look smart. But all I don't know is he updated in January now saying the largest car company who were actually owns a lot of cars now, Amazon's the largest retail quite a few retail stores and things change. And I think it's true that as we see scale and dominance happen. It's it's less about digital transformation and more about understanding where the actual rubber meets the road. And a lot of these businesses that have been around forever that are there that are being disrupted are actually, you know, leaders for reason and actually have a very strong while you


can distrupt, disrupt. But you know, you see Worby Parker help nab retail stores etcetera etcetera. So yeah, I absolutely believe that it's a world of everything is with not instead of and I've said that for you know, decades at this point. And it does it frustrates me too. And there's this sort of general digital transformation is everything whole, hog attitude. Whether it's coming from a McKinsey or out of my mouth, and I sort of makes me yawn a little bit because they're very smart businesses who understand their industry you've done very, well, the growing through


acquisition organic, and they know what they're doing. And so yes, this is an imperative this is a different time things are changing. But let's not forget that where when customers come into play whether it's B 2 B or B to see sometimes the big beasts in the industry that are being disrupted know something. Yeah. Yeah. And and on that point I want to move on to our next topic in just a minute talking about the global tech backlash that a lot of experts are predicting will come. In the wake of GDP. Are there's a lot of talk about


global populations resisting. This tech de personalization of individuals, but we're gonna get to that and just a minute. But I I gotta talk about our sponsor. Blinked in look if you're going to market your business, you know, a couple of things she no it's about reaching the right audience at the right time, that's a basic marketing paradigm. And it's about connecting them with a message that will resonate with them at the exact right time. So if you want to target your customers, they're engaging every day.


And when they're ready to make a decision linked in is the perfect place to run your next ad campaign. Because when you advertise on linked in you're not only getting the world's largest professional, mar on network, you're getting the opportunity to build long term relationships where customers actually feel comfortable relationships that translate into high quality leads website traffic, higher brand awareness. In fact, over 500 75000000 professionals engage


with content on linked in. That's a lot of people people [laughter]. And chances are your future customers are going to be among them. So you're definitely going to want to reach out to this network. And then there's the targeting because linked in has the marketing tools to help you target your customers with precision because unlike a lot of the competitors out there in the social space, you're not just targeting on simple demographics. You're also targeting right down to the job title to the company name even the industry and


remember better targeting equals, a message or customers care about which in turn leads to more trust built with customers. And I got 1 last fact for you. And I want you to pay attention to this keep in mind that 4 out of 5 customers who were on linked in our decision makers at their company that's 4 out of 5 are decision makers. So you're building relationships with the kind of people who matter most to your business. Now, they've got a great offer. I love this offer because it gives you an opportunity to


try out winked in for yourself. You're going to redeem a free 100 dollar linked in ad credit launch your first campaign, and all you have to do is go to linked cast. That's linked cast, and you're going to get a free 100 dollar ad credit now, terms and conditions. Do apply. They're all on the website want you to check it out. Remember linked in absolutely the best place to target your next be to be campaign. And we


thank them very much further support of this show. Well, emarketer is claiming the GDP are is just the beginning of a global tech backlash that could see country after country and knocked legislation to sharply. Curtailed taxability ability to expand. David is this just alarmist thinking, or is this a real possibility that this is actually happening? And there were 2 articles that we were referencing. 1 was the infamous Wall Street Journal


article that it took forever for us to get out. But there was also this emarketer article between the 2 of them watch your take on this situation. So backup and understand weird. GDP your comes from Europe. He's strictly has been very pro privacy. Can't speak that about that to the United States or I can't speak to other countries. But that is Europe's mantra they are very


very strict about. What control companies can monitor of about the others and even their own employees so K so they have a history of being extremely pro privacy. So the fact that they introduced GDP are not a surprise. Now, this whole thing about big companies and the way that they're abusing data. I don't think there's really a 1 correlation between GDP are. And that that's a whole other should the


thing with GDP. Or is it affects everyone not just the big players. So. To to mix. The 2 is I think kind of an apples and oranges thing. But let me hit them. He'll let me get devil's advocate. I think others are taking notice. I mean here in California. We are having their own our own privacy legislation. Good going to go into effect in 20 20. But it actually isn't as stringent as GDP are because ours is more of


an opt out. Policy of getting out of data collection verses of the way GDP are is you have to have explicit opt in for company to actually collect your data will about to set. Well, what I was gonna say is that GDP are may be from a very restrictive privacy Centric community. I understand that. But it's also in response to repeated violations of those privacy regulations that came before it. So I mean, you can't say the GDP are did not come


about. As a result of a lot of bad behavior on the part of tech. And I think that's at the core of what this article is articles are talking about there's a lot of bad behavior floating out there in the come up in says is just starting. I mean, I I can I can. I'm skeptical of this article them skeptical of this premise that a whole bunch of different nationalities and different communities around the world populations are gonna rise up in rebel against the privacy concerns that they


feel but it's not so far fetched especially considering the fact of something that you said the GDP are is affecting everybody. And it's awakening people to the reality of how much their data is at risk. I should mention it's affecting everybody who who does any kind of business in Europe or communicates with people in in Europe. But that's pretty much everybody in general. I I would assume at the real direct unless you're a very local business here in the U S cereal crops. Here's obviously that Tim cook. From


apple came out. And you know, there's a there's a lot of angles to this story with Tim cook from apple because 1 of it is, of course, he's taking his swats at. Google and Facebook, but it's very hard. Not to look at society today and realize that you have these multi-billion-dollar platforms where the only product being sold is your data and information that these are not driven by what many have cut dubbed the surveillance. You know, surveillance capitalism. There's a truth here. And it's not about s- stricter privacy laws in order


to restrict people's abilities to do things or take away choice and things like that. It's about the fact that consumers don't really understand or have access to truly understanding what is being done and where it's going. And again, maybe I'm going to show where I come from geographic as I'm Canadian. And so perhaps we do lean more towards these European models. But ultimately, Bob, I think you nailed it and used to go down that road a little bit. And unpack it. The only reason any of this exists is because we the


marketers have stepped over the line way too many times or these tech platforms and companies have stepped over the line way. Too many times. And the only reason that this is happening is because government has to intervene because we ourselves can't self regulate. We ourselves can't help ourselves. Oh, we can grab data. Let's take that data. Oh, we can sell that data. Let's sell that data. So there's that sort of famous data is the new oil topped your flopping around everywhere, but data is being used as a as a weapon and has been completely weaponized. And if there's


no way for us to respect human values to respect people's data to respect their right to security, and my thoughts the right to privacy threat to security to have that information. The consumers could have access to this that can be done a transparent, which is very easy to do in a digital world. I think it shame on us. And shame on the businesses for having a shame. Shame is not going to control control people from doing it. I mean, it is we are data is a product. That's what it is is the product that


they they could be used sold. And resold and targeted. I mean, it's it's an amazing product that is an insane amount of value to it and either regulations gonna come in and with our current president who is very aggressive about deregulation. I I don't see how that's going to be done on a federal level. But if you have states like California who controls such an enormous amount of economy. They set a regulation that. So goes the nation. I mean, you're you're just not going to have able if that if that data is, but they David if that data is


valuable don't you think the value of that data should belong to the person whose data it is? I agree. But the problem is when you as an organization. Can gather that data so incredibly easily it way too enticing not to eat. It is you know, it just like there's a building each step in is so enticed to take it. But then there needs to be, but, but that's the point of all this GDP our forces these companies to then have another layer to that. Which is don't just take it


and do whatever you want with it. It has to be understood by the consumer what is being done with it. So you can't say well, his great. But probably there are not nuanced in any way that you think that if it is an all or nothing thing either. I get to collect your data. Right. Don't get to collect your data. And the major problem with DVR is it has 0 nuance. However is not a perfect ingenious because there are certain ways you would like your data use. And there might be certain ways, you don't and the problem is most people don't


control their own privacy. Most people don't go onto Facebook and change their privacy settings. But if you ask them do you want privacy? Yes, I want privacy. Well, this is this is evolving into a conversation that it's the is much broader. And I want to narrow it back down to where we started which is that. GDP are may be imperfect legislation, but it's still the impetus to other legislations being formed around the world. And I think that well, I think


well, California part of the world, but [laughter] is ridiculous. That it's going that way. I mean, I come from the music industry, you think about how rights to music it is still in this day and age geographic. However, it's a Spotify and apple music. They gotta go country by country. We do have a connected internet. If you have a business that's interacting on the platform globally. There should be a more unified way to do this. I mean, if we're getting down to the state level here. I mean, no one's going to be able to operate. No, absolutely not.


Michelle, I want to get your thoughts on the fact that a tech firms are I guess what I'm trying to get out is a. Will this situation negatively affect all tech firms are just the ones built on models that ignore privacy and other consumer concerns? I mean, it's just like it's sounding like the way. This conversation is evolving that everybody loses from restrictive legislation at the same time that everybody wins. So,


but it seems that seems a sink all boats. Now didn't say it's a it's a wake-up call. And I think that it's good that we starting to get regulation isn't perfect defense time. It comes in it never as regulation. Absolutely never ends. But it has done a sanction. Hopefully, it lays the it lays the way for more nuanced regulation that would be great. But to be honest. I mean, I've I've seen it from day 1 in web development where


Retallack him with certain clients in that over their database that could be migrating into a new CRM system or something like that. Consumer records wouldn't be encoded. And you know, this is going to this is going back a ways there's been bad habits booming for so long. And I think that we've given people. And run with it. And I think that it's a really good thing. Now that they're being pulled back in a little bit. It's gonna take a while to get it to get a right to even get everyone to


agree that this is a good thing. But it was a where was oh now so digital from a consumer point of view every single part of our life. The way we communicate the way we entertain the way we work on that. Now, west otting tools are realize what happens found data our new when Google maps I came out, not Google maps. Sorry, Google analytics. You know, we were using it. Wailua the along long long time ago, and, you know, even then you could say, hey, you wanna send the data from your site back to Google or not,


and we as people in the industry with being aware of all of this stuff for a lot longer than anyone else has now you've got lawmakers becoming aware of it consumers becoming aware of ad this is this is step 1 in the right direction. I think I'm not gonna comment on whether a GDP are is is a good good question. The questions notable whether or not it's more about the fact that everybody is affected equally harshly budget. If your


equally affected harshly by any additional legislation that comes down the line from other. Nationalities. So mentally, you're not a moon. No what I'm saying many basis. No, I'm not trying to say is going to do a better. We obviously do need the do a better. But what I'm more concerned about is. You know, what impetus does give companies to behave well in that scenario because everybody's being treated equally badly. You


know, it's like if for Melinda. Lenny argh, I don't believe it's equal treatment. Because if you're a company that's heavily invested in Europe. And you don't have any control of your current data. It you don't know how to reel it in in your connected to third parties. Were you don't know what they're doing with the data that you are greatly affected by GDP? Are if you're someone who just has a mailing list. And you know, where the people who are from Europe. And you know, how to turn them on and off


you're not that heavily affected by GDP are. So there are deaths occurred. That's great. That's a great yearly companies are affected by this. That's that's a that's a fantastic point. Well, I want to move on. And I want to talk next about visual search for retail. It's something that we've talked about on this show for a number of years. I think that it's a very important part of the future of retail. Unfortunately, keeps being touted as coming next year. And it never does. So we're gonna talk about the status of that in just a minute. But


first word from Admiral. I come downstairs night of him. I and my mom and dad to see that in a potentially we might lose all our lost shop, and we've always had stores growing up. I guess I was just no bubble enjoying my my Jovi music. And I didn't really realize that potentially our house was on the line. We both knew something had to change. I genuinely family believed in the digital


process in getting our seen online. I knew we needed help. And I knew we needed a platform to help get our content scene. And our message heard the first campaign that we engage with Admiral returned 27 times, the ROI I can turn turn back and say, look, look what we've accomplished to learn more about how knobs lemme and turned his family business into a global retail brand. Visit cast. That's a D R O L

00:38:28 cast. Well, moving on it's been the holy grail of check for some time visual search promises. Let consumers locate items to by simply by photographing a similar item in their life. Now companies are expanding efforts and fine tuning efforts in getting ready for a wave of adoption. The only trouble is Michelle demand continues to. Get there. I have like a weird word my script, and it's like totally


tripping [laughter]. Demand continues to not be that demand continues to have early. Lackluster results at best. So are we really on the verge of this new error? Or is it still years before consumer adopts it? What's your take on the situation with visual search with that, very lazy intro sorry [laughter]? Holy grail. Come on should be not even that anything


related. But I will stumps. Take exception for the for Justice again because it's like, you know, when I use the term holy grail for visual. Search I don't think that it's overstatement, it's not hyperbole. I mean, the ability to take a photograph of anything in your life. And then find it immediately online, and then buy it is an incredible leap forward that everybody's been promising for a long time. And it never seems materialize. So I would counter that it truly is 1 of the few


times you can use the word holy grail the term holy grail. And actually have it apply. But that's just my thought is it going to be a holy grail. Take it up with a priest [laughter] sprinkled. Holy water. They were a little too, you know, wearing blinders and in that and that such a holy ground. But I think it is. At an incredible opportunity and technology that is absolutely coming into play. So I wanna I want to reset a little bit. Because I this is this is


quite low end so visual such. And does allow you to use an image to do a computer by such to find something similar on? You can start with an image on you can put into search engine. You can stop with an image and put it into some sort of search field on a particular company or retailers sites. You know to to start a search to find similar products or on that he did some of the the source material. You you shed in even to help you find things in store. Like, hey, I have this. Where are they in on deep in our? And then there's also


a lot of stuff that we don't see that's not necessarily on active participation visual visual such there. Some some some new site startups that I I really have a soft spot for folks, like,, S, E, I love those guys a lot who were working with big fashion retailer sites to implement visual search and computer vision machine leading to a subtly actually change what your served


up. So if you come from another site, so it's it's customized for you. Without you, really undestanding it so much just based on visual. And so when we talk about the. That's I think a visual search, and is it is isn't there yet is going to come? There's 2 things that I immediately thought of 1 is the tech passing but kicks sorry capability. Understand a building out these databases at learning. What images? What objects are


categorizing them understanding what they are. So getting getting that that database built. And also at and we are getting there. So we're building these amazing libraries of things that computers are now undestanding cats human faces catches things like that. So that that really does take a long time to build, and it is getting there, and there's different things that are going to come up with a euro, 2 months old. That's it converges different databases. But then there's also the tech that's built into the devices with


the cameras. So there's also if we're taking photos of something, you know, the the tech about devices needs to be up to scratch in order for it to you know, to take that visual information and understand old catcher in such a way that it can then interpret it. So that's 1 thing building the tech capability. But then there's the use cases in in. This is I think what we're going to focus on today. This is the hottest thing. Where Google has actually had visual search for her years. You know, every every now, and then I'll post something on Facebook and say,


hey, does anyone know where you know, these glasses of from? What did you see the outfit on sullen? So, you know wonder what brand it is? And 1 of my friends who does use visual search will say, hey, just drop it into Google and do a search, and I never do go head over to search soil constantly awesome. I love that. And I have some friends who were absolutely in the same boat. But then I often ask people where they get that. Right. So on a wage give a jacket. Where'd you get that dress? So a lot of these tools out. There is a lot of it's about a


wet senseless also about building new habits. So I think like Pinterest is a really good place because you're already visually scrap booking in a building from Pinterest. And having them be you know, sort of like a boon in visual. Search is makes a lot of sense. And but there's another scientific research as well. There's also using objects using your camera looking at things and getting more information from them. And that's where we're really seeing this convergence with a are as well.


So having you know, looking through your phone at something and having it actually understand what it is. You're looking at Sheppard. Give more information give you different options being out to put it in your heart and things like that. So we the way we search is pretty hard wired into us right now and everyone searches differently. You know, I pride myself in being a good Google uh because I'm pretty good with my meta data, you know, and and so different people such different ways. So I think building the tech capability, and then creating looking at the use cases and then in


future when these things become ubiquitous when this is built into our tech. I think then you're really going to see how how this explodes. The challenge the challenge with this is talking not really both visual search and Tuckerman, this is focused more retail. And I think what we're actually saying is that user experiences and the issue we know that anybody who engages in visual search on retail up. It's a lot more intuitive the Duke Legos take a picture of what you want,


and you can see what's going on. But the data stats says it right 1000000000 per month versus hundreds of billions of searches that are happening there. So you're big tech is going to spend retailers going gonna spend because detectives nascent, and you got us where to be a part of it. I think Pinterest. You know, it's sort of like a destination to see things replace you put stuff, it isn't this sort of moment in need right now where you're there, and you need something. You'd accessed information my feeling when I read this article


was I don't think it's ever gonna work in retail. I think that voice search is going to leapfrog it by leaps and bounds and super fast people to say into their device, I need this screwdriver. I'm looking for this type of smoke detector. Where do I go? But I actually don't think it's going to be the Pinterest play. I think if you look at it it's gonna it's gonna be shame on Google, if they don't, and I I don't know if they will or won't, but it's going to be an Amazon them misunderstands. What visual search is really the power for for retail is really all about it's about that happenstance. Like, oh,


wow. That jacket. Let me take a picture of it all our tour. I can get it. It's not about it's not about every 10 of shot building. It's about, you know, find your specific the fashion. Bob, right. If you well, for example of Home Depot or other stores where it's a big big store. You got a lot of things you need. You don't know where this is. You don't know where that is? That's a different than the sort of fashion. Connecting versus as a lot of stuff that I need and I wanna move through quickly without sort of texting. And that's row right here


visual during the liberal world of images out there. To think that now all the images that are out there, all the clothing all the animals, all the. Objects buildings. Whatever is out there can now be indexed. If visual search is up to game. But it's too nascent and we've all had bad experiences with it. Once that is now indexed. Now, you have a level of power that you've never seen before the goes way beyond


just retail. And the fact that a single image could have hundreds if not thousands of indexes index points at him because of things that are in the image is extraordinarily powerful that will spread across all industry. No, no. We see that for sure for Facebook and Instagram out. There's no doubt a David or, you know, the focus of this was a visual search at retail site. I get the impact of it across the board. There's no data Beila. You can go back and look at Google projects on this type of initiative where you can


sort by visuals and adobe is even done stuff. Like this going back a decade? There's no doubt the impact of visual. Search important the focus on it being at the retail level, and how it's going to come together and having places like, Home Depot and others. Investing a ton of money was seen fit very little returns. My feeling is that voice is going to skip visual. Very specific use case that you provided a Hyundai putt 1. So that the the the case there, if you read the outgoing up with, you know, you're in store, and your, you know, you brought


up a broken door handle with you. And you're like where do I find this widow, I find this to be 92 by 1? And so you would essentially scan something that you already have find find it on the site then and then put it through the session. We'll tell you where in the store to find it. That's a great tool. But it's a very me. She's case. So they it's not like they shouldn't invest in that. But it should be 1 of a suite of tool as liberal members part of their digital transformation


garage or thinking about very very linear. Perkovic? That's what is the articles above your articles about retail retail retail needs to expand the. Viewpoint of how it sees retail. Yes. Absolutely. And that's why that's why Amazon's move several years ago to start warehousing or photographs for free, quote unquote for free is really a big indexing play. I mean, we


understand that ends in AWS so Holly Holly Holly on at the jump on. I 4 or through the linear process that's been described. This is actually good guy and for a drill company. The title is 25 to 35 year old women, and why did 1 whole section on visual? Search. So we were looking at it the whole bunch of stuff, and he have to narrow it down. We will looking at ways that we could use


visual such data to create insights and create a site that could be used inspiration up cycling or DIY projects based on you know, things that we're trending for sale things that styles that in your area things that we're trending for sale in shops in your area on gum tree, which is like their version of like EBay, I guess trailing his version of events was strictly an agency. And so what what we narrowed it down to was that could we use? These was data infighting visual


Bischel such insights to create. Thumping surprise it. Something really surprising useful that somebody wouldn't have go to search themselves. And also that they probably couldn't search themselves would take days, and we would we would bubble up. His surprising insights, all visualized. So rather than searching, we we use in to show, and that might be a way that we stopped to get more buy in from consumers and from retailers about this. If we sort of show them what's possible use it to create


really interesting insights, or you know, what to buy next to, you know, new stuff in store things that might be to relate to you. And then get used to seeing things visually and searching outlay under. So that was a cool way of looking. And you're you're trying to Japan before Obama. Did you ever think you discourse which then tad father? I think that it's hard. It's hard to add anything more than say from almost personal experience like taking myself point, my professional work and say. I do think


that the way to lead the behavior change is retaining the experience with visuals as a digit as a data asset that makes sense. So. If you can get people to start seeing the photograph with the picture, either, they take her they find as a link to the thing they buy you're going to start making a lot of headway. It's I'm just tipping backed what Michelle was just saying. Which is give them a new experience of how a picture how the visual can get them. What they want faster that's going to tip them into the new behavior. And then it's going to open up a whole world for.


Everyone from the retailer like a target to the the affinity groups cite like a Pinterest because Pinterest may be able than bounce that out to some pretty nice ad marketing sales. For them to say look yet. We'll let you tag your stuff anywhere on Pinterest and let people know how much it costs and where to buy it in their area, Brian who feel secure it's like, it's smarter Nobis adopting really strange digital things were these companies and


many people been talking about a forever me Amazon at the bar code scanner forever. Re scan the barcode you could see the prices, and that was the whole show rooming. People are not adopting this. It's mine lead taking more pictures than ever with your phone. But when it comes to this stuff, it's like now, I'm account. This is why I think the visual search will have its no explosive growth in China. I I mean because it's it's like it's the same thing with QR codes a kid, they do everything by QR code Amina is like I have


it. I can't see habit form the habit, and then you'll have private they're trying. It's as weird thing where North Americans are just not doing it. It's a problem with North Americans is, and I think that this is this is going to take a little bit. But. What I have learned by working with some some in being embedded in some Asian companies is that there's definitely a sort of value for information and expediency, and and also


being socially sort of at parody with your peers. So that that sorta desire has driven that behavior, which where the QR code behavior comes from. But whereas. I think in North America when you start to pull us apart to aggregate, get out of the urban areas and go more to the the sort of rural suburban areas most people spend their after work hours just. You know, look at their Facebook page, click and through stuff, I know people actually just like to go on Amazon and see what's out there. So there's it's almost


like. It's almost like downtime delivers shock ferry image base overtake. You is pictures with these devices were for the more and more time in that functionality. And yet when it comes to this we're so resilient. So I think there's stuff out there that we should be paying attention to like home improvement people who go out to a website or an app called house. With Eze, and they're out there tagging every single product in every picture, it's like a Pinterest for home improvement or designer site. They're going not there tagging everything with a price


tag. And where you can get it and people who do that for any amount of time become a little bit addicted to clicking on the price tag. And I think if you can start to drive that behavior away from my website is like my magazine, I'm just going to flip through and just see if anything piqued my interest. If you can flip into that. You're gonna be going into a new behavior. Want to move onto our last Robert because we're running out of time in the same vein as the whole visual search things social shopping is also claiming to be a thing after


many previous false starts saw. Everybody's always claimed that people would want to buy stuff from Twitter. I haven't seen that actually happen. So Mitch are we any closer? I mean is the whole face what marketplace so truly watershed moment as Pinterest really driving this forward. What's your take on it? Yeah. I don't think any of. That's that's true. In fact, if you really dig into the research that belies this conversation piece, it's less about shop, social shopping and much more about the fact that mobile


and people shopping on the go is facilitating perhaps this growth in social. And I think that there's a big disconnect between this idea of sort of mobile and ecommerce or what we call the endless aisle. To this sort of shifting of really what social shopping is about which is what I would call the anywhere. I'll the fact that you know, if you want to buy something from let's go back to Home Depot in theory. You should be able to buy it off their Facebook page. Offer their YouTube channel or off of Instagram. And I think this


idea of for brands this idea of e com versus offsite shopping is still very uncomfortable. And I think on the other side if you look at the platforms, whether it's your Facebook, Instagram's YouTube site of the world, I think they're really resilient to the idea. In fact, if you, you know, 1 of the things when I do my keener, I talk about the whole instabilities explosion where people are building Instagram businesses on Instagram without their permission. They're using WhatsApp and the and the description lines so that you can WhatsApp them for the price of what they're


seeing in the pictures or videos or tiles. They're using square pay pal for the transaction and Instagram really has no shop ability to it at all. I mean think about you know, even a Facebook store versus the buy button. It just it doesn't even come close them in. The closest were seeing right now is how Facebook messenger is trying somewhat to compete with the more mature markets in the sort of messaging and commerce activation space again going back to Asia with we chat line.


With. I think it's 35 plus 0 merchants in their can accept payments through Facebook messenger. So you don't have to leave that ecosystem. But just when you think about it. It just it doesn't really feel like it's there yet. It feels like it's more of a lead gen tool. It's a place where you can create value on social you can provide information you can be a utility can provide sales assistant and help. But the actual core. The core transaction not


so much. How is it influencing liked to influence play a huge role in social shopping getting people? Yes. Talking about a buzz a transactional shopping, see, then that's exactly might saying. The plane social shopping for me because sure I understand shorter. It's what the definition I think the core definition is your ability to finalize the transaction within a social environment. That would be my Twitter being within Facebook being within linked


in. And that the transaction happens the finality built within basically Facebook or Twitter become a retailer as well as a social network, and I think that a lot of that little bit of that through Facebook messenger. I know they've been sort of pushing that pretty heavily by but what it really comes down to. And I wanna get Holly's thought on this 1 because it's just like, it seems like the consumer behavior is that we go to social network for recommendation like Mitch was saying we go for it. We


get some kind of message that inspires us to buy. And then we go elsewhere to do the actual shopping. And it seems like that's the behavior that needs to be encouraged not stopping that process. That's natural from happening in just trying to snow create the transaction at the moment that they've been inspired to even look for the program. I think it depends on who you are in the life cycle of the by if you're in association website, and you're going to make any kind of.


Percentage on the sale, then I think you wanted in your site, which behoove you to create a better, you user, interface and user experiences they stay in. And don't take out verses if you really just using it like lead gen machine, and you wanna you want that sale to come to your site. So that you control the by and you control the financing of the by then you definitely want to click out. And I, and I think that it depends on who you are. And I think the decision will ultimately be made by the the 1 who wins the where the by goes who gets the money for the opposite. Right.


It's this idea that everyone talks about the shop Afars this endless aisle. But this anywhere. I'll yes. A really uncomfortable makes no sense, you way, you're billions of people on Instagram goods wanted to exact let 'em transit. Does. It not make sense though. When you think of it in context of what has been going on with direct television direct marketing on television for years. I mean, if you basically have this. This commercial that runs and a gives you a phone


number and you buy right from the T V. I mean, essentially, you're buying hunger. The Michigan right retirement, the paying a commission so his question. So no by Adam. But I'm getting the Woodham getting down to is that, you know, maybe instead of trying to create little shops within the social environment like Facebook marketplace or some kind of other solution like that. To actually treat themselves like there's some kind of direct marketing opportunity. I mean, it's just like it's another ad play. But it


makes a lot more sense within the context of the social experience. Does they kind of are doing that? Don't like if you look at concerts, Bobby no other ticket Nashes of the world. It'll say by and then you click it. But then you're taught you dumped out, right? Like you. You're just dumped out back to over to TicketMaster. So they make it look that way. But it isn't actually that way right now, it's not fight. Whenever it sounds like if you wanted to me. I mean, that's a huge leap for them to


make to actually but insists on transaction. Brooded only makes sense for them doesn't it? I mean, if dislike as opposed to building their own retail operation. You know to actually just facilitate the transaction. I mean, I've I've been saying that for years. I mean, I was 1 of the big believers in the. Initial Facebook currency that when belly up I mean, I believe that, you know, it's it's a great idea for them to create a transaction. Demanded a transaction. To encourage


transactions on their platform, but not necessarily be the retailer themselves and to take on the whole transaction. I would be comfortable with that. I mean, I think he's going to punt encoded over giving them everything. Anyways [laughter]. It gave him all our personal information. That's ahead. Give her credit card number 2. You know, they've they've been tracking me on Facebook. They know what I like what I where I lived. And they know like what Mariah friends vote, they know where I get my groceries.


So why not tell them my credit card number while I'm at it. I think the dirty little secret of this too. Candidly is attribution. And if you think about in a multi channel Omni channel from the ecommerce standpoint, it's so some some it's Holly debated as you provide the attribution to and I think that. These e commerce platforms or or at work or retailers or anybody who sells in general. And then all mine is worried that what they might see might scare them. And also the information that it let's say a Facebook or Google might be able to capture from how responsible up for the transaction. They


are might be a scary piece of data for them to know what I think that this is you know, social is part of the funnel. But this attribution issue is really something that runs very very deeply is very sensitive to these retailers. Maybe if they did move more of their by to it you mean, and then they realized how much they were actually contributing Facebook dead than they would just hiked the price of up on Facebook. And right actually afford to be there is there are also risks though, if you're letting your product be sold on


Facebook. Are you missing the opportunity to have a follow on sale because on your site? You're more adept at marketing something that goes with it. You know, the experience you have on Amazon. Now is you click on something you're about to put it in your cart. You scroll down. It says. Other people who purchase this item had purchased. These other 2 things that go with it and not the add on sale. And are you missing that through a social chancellor revoked for the same argument of why you should go to the website to borrow snow d as opposed to buying a snuggie from a TV commercial? You're going to buy the snuggie, you


know, 1 way or another. I mean, it's like they've got a little bit of both going on. How many have you bought Bob? Are you snuggie in my NYU presentation all the time? It always gets a good laugh. Well, anyway, it's tough for the ad fell 5. But before we do that. I do wanna take this opportunity to thank my guests again and allow them to each to a shameless plug starting with Michelle excel, you can find her at the antipathy and.U S the link will be on the website. So don't worry about spelling it right now to tell


us which she liked to promote Michelle. I have 2 things though, do it really quickly November 12 in New York Brooklyn. Unidentified look up boxes are ex apostrophe S secret code book launch Cy whipping working with Mara has created this incredible book and keep goes in steam education. I'm an amazing customizable book we've built the IOC companion app. So I'm going to be out there November twelfth and then a new vendor. 28 Palm Springs


at Ted women. I am hosting running a web shop called old meant this. So if you were coming Ted women, look me up. Was it becoming said woman sign up? I would love to have you on the web shop. Well, documented reality the link for Michelle's website will be in the show notes next up. We have Michelle Mitch Joel you can find him at 6 That's the home of the 6 pixels group and a whole bunch of other stuff, including access to his books in his podcast in


all kinds of stuff. So. What's in your life? There. Mitch what would you like to promote? Oh, bob. I think you just did he had over 6 You'll see my stupidly long running blog and podcast of the same name. And it's just a just as a massive content there. So please go check it out. Now, I highly recommend it. I've actually been on that show before next up. We've had indeed. And next up. We have Holly Noto you can find her at X That's


explain. Tell us what's going on in your world. Holly. What would you like to promote? We'll explain is really excited because we're about to launch our newest piece that we think is going to influence the weighted everybody works it's called organizational adulting. Yes. I said adulting meeting learning to behave like adults to other adults with under her adult at work. It's our ways of working campaign this year, and we're about to launch a series of conversations both on linked in in on our website. They'll be going off November first and


be a part of it. Because it culminates the first week of December with a webinar on how you can adult better at work. And this is a lot of transformational work around behavior, change and culture in the workplace. You need that. If you do your digital transformation. You're definitely unless we're not least we have David spark. You can find him at spark media Man, you do amazing content. David everything from books to videos audio. So tell us what would you like to promote?


Well, thank you very much. Bob, are I too would like to promote 2 things 1 is very excited about it. And it's only been live for about a month. I knew site, and it's specifically anyone who's in the security industry. Cybersecurity in particular, check out C, so and see so sanfer. Chief information security officer. I've a series of videos articles, and I have a podcast, which I co host with the chief information security officer of lift Mike Johnson, and we're gonna be recording right after this 1. It's


become rather successful in the security industry. So see so Subscribe to that podcast them. And Secondly, any listeners in southern California are going to be in southern California next week in San Diego or Los Angeles. I knew workshop. That I do called business networking pickup lines. And you can actually learn the art of business flirting there is such a thing. And it's not something where you sit down. And you listen to me talk everyone's up talking engaging. It's a full-blown


workshop. No, 1 sits down at all. And it's a lot of fun. And it's a part of a a a half day conference a joke. The who is putting on about humor and sales. So please join us for that. And I know that you've got that show coming up right after. So if you need to drop off I understand, but I hope you can stick around for the I Don here. Okay. Fantastic. And as for me for more information about me or the show. Visit the being there you can find a complete show archive. You can find out how to consult with me can even find out how


to advertise on the program. So check it all out at the being And don't forget we now have transcription services. Thanks to transcribe, If you go to transcribe cast. You can get a fabulous discount off your first transcription service. So check it out at transcribe cast. And now it's time for the Advil 5 or run down the lowest moments in advertising marketing and public relations from the last week. I stop


a highly sophisticated ad fraud. Plot has been uncovered by BuzzFeed, Michelle, apparently, the scammers acquired dozens of Android apps that were popular, and well regarded, but not particularly successful managed to acquire all these apps, then scan the user behavior and then created bot traffic to mimic that mimic that behavior, defrauding advertisers of literally hundreds of millions of dollars at this point. So. It's it's


you know, it's almost like I gotta say mad props for the bad guys here. This is [laughter]. Creator rule and somebody'll find the loophole to jump to it right [laughter]. Technical undertaking itself was was remarkable. Yeah. I was pretty impressed. Vice news successfully proved the Facebook's new system for verifying political ads. David simply doesn't work after they


managed to post ads in the name of Mike Pence, Tom Perez and even some ads from ISIS. You know, this one's kind of damning when it comes to actual things. Facebook's been saying about how they've improved the system. But this goes to be extremely wary. When someone says we are a 0 percent secure or Weibel of 100 percent fix this problem. That is a you're you're b s and warning lights should go


off an immensely, and it is not a shock that this was discovered. Yep. Absolutely. Now, I'm going to go to the Canadian for this next 1 because it's probably the safest person to put this with the Trump campaign neglected to stop an Email blast that derided CNN only 2 hours after the pipe bomb scare where CNN was mailed a pipe bomb by a Trump supporter. So, you know, I I think this is just par for the course for the


Trump administration at this point. What do we say make fake news? Great again, at least get rid of CNN is what they're saying. Yeah. Kleenex will rebrand its man size tissues. Holly after consumers complained that the name was sexist. They're calling it extra-large now [laughter]. Gotta have to be man. This is worthy. Now, Bob it's like sponge worthy. Decides felt you know, the worst part


about this name is that just has so much innuendo there [laughter]. It's like, it's such a terrible. Terrible name. Even beyond the sexism setting is it that the name is really just wrong. Or is it that this is now something like naming tissue is as important as talking about. I don't know like transgender rights or women's equity and pay or anything that we're doing in in the workplace now and talking about what happened with the supreme


court. Like, we really wanna talk about sexism. Could we please not talk about poorly named Kleenex exciting? Let's talk about something else. The fact that this was even a problem is really little embarrassing for most of us who want to have a, you know, more important conversation about you know, sexism and and issues for women. The Brits who took the heat on this water was the Brits ver I have to say, I did shock all. Because all I could think of was the previous dean cast. We did we talked about condoms


[laughter]. Make me laugh [laughter] should Weber. Okay [laughter]. Unless below at least NBC's Megan Kelly today was canceled after the host defended black freeze Michelle as acceptable for Halloween. And yes, the panel discussing the issue was all Caucasian. I mean, what was your first clue that maybe this conversation? Oh, believe me. I am very very aware of that.


I'm very aware of that. But it's just like we're not talking about the benefits of black face. We're talking about the fact that weather not this is a smart conversation. Even be having. You know, I I I'm always down and find the conversations that end up actually playing out in the morning, TV daytime TV, but for this. How how you could just not have that programmed into your head already is surprising, the tunnel this shocking. The only time that alarm goes off in


your brain. Where you say something like, you know, what's wrong with take a pause before comes out, take the boss [laughter]. We'll have something to add to this list or just wanna discuss it common online. Use the hashtag God fell 5 that's pound Advil and the number 5. And that does it for this week's show if you'd like to subscribe to this podcast, visit our website at being and click on the subscribe link if you're not tunes listener who also provided a direct link to the genes music store or just search


for the being cast in the podcast directory of I tunes and whichever podcast directory us when you subscribe, please leave us a review. Got a comment have a question. We'd love to hear from you just send your emails to being cast a gmaiLcom opening theme was performed by Joe cyber closing theme by C Jack's thanks for listening. I'm Bob nork will be back again next week. Hope you'll join us then






Cool beans.