BeanCast Transcripts

BeanCast 491 Transcript

BeanCast 491: Hedonic Contamination

Date: 10-Apr-2018

Input sound file: 0491_The_BeanCast_Marketing_Podcast_Hedonic_Contamination

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This episode of the bean cast is brought to you by flooding natural, see for yourself, what a super burst of flavonoids can do for your brain and physical health. Good. If love a natural dotcom and use the offer code Bob for 20% off your first order banned with provided by recursive squirrel, interactive transcription services provided by transcribed me dotcom visit them on the web@transcribed cast for up to twenty-five percent off. That's transcribe me. Dotcom episode


491 had Donna contamination. For Monday April 9th 2018 it's time for this week's edition of the beam. Cast a weekly


discussion about the news and issues facing marketers today. Host Bob Lohr. Thanks for joining us. We are if he is a way of life in the ad world, if we need agencies, we get them to compete for the business, but doesn't are really give brands and insight into what agencies will serve the best. Could test projects be a


better method? Tonight will discuss also the brand safety issues posed by other ads. How to leverage family fascination with voice devices? Youtubes latest move to be more like t d plus this week's had fell five. That's the lineup. Lets me tonight's panel. Thanks for joining us for this week's been cast. I'm Bob Lohr


and with me on the panel for the seemingly start with the founder and C e. O of Arcadia communication lab mister Jonathan Salem Baskin Jonathan Hello. Hello, Bob and thanks for the invite back. Looking forward to our conversation. It's always one of my best shows when I have Jonathan Selim basket involved. So very, very excited to have you here. And we also have with a senior vice president at Edison research pod, casting expert author pod cast or all that fun stuff mister Tom Webster. Hi Tom. A


Bob. Thanks for having me back. You know, it's just like I would have preferred your wife, but we we got use. I also [laughter]. I'm sorry, you got the second one [laughter]. Is believed to have you on the program. Hey, we've got a lot to cover tonight and first up there was this interesting article. I read an interesting opinion piece this past week that suggested that instead of our of requests for proposals, the industry should move toward a test


project process on the surface. This sounds like a great idea. I mean, it gets rid of a whole bunch of the problems that agencies have with our pis- it gives you a chance to really shine maybe make a little money in the process. But Jonathan. There's gotta be you'd like a dozen downsides that I can think of off the top of my head. So what's your opinion on this issue? Jeeze Bobby of a dozen I only thought of too, but let let me too quick pros because I happen to agree with you. There is a some overt


upside to this. And the first you mentioned, which is nobody likes are if peas. I mean, not only do they suck, but they don't lead to good advertiser agency relationships. I did a little homework on this thing, and there's not a piece of research out there that says there's any correlation cause causal or otherwise between. Our of peas and what lasting agency relationships, in fact, the largest it, a brand advertisers have


agency relationships that last I am Sarah half of them have agency relationships. The last three years or less. And then they put the account up for review again, so it's it's a it's a group grow process that doesn't yield better decision making or better advertising, but is the fault of the our peers that the fault of the relationships involved. I mean, well good. I'm sorry, finish with I? No, I was just going to say, I mean, we've got this situation were procurement is involved negotiating for


the lowest possible price. It's an adversarial relationship right from the beginning. Is that more the cause of the fact that the agency relationships break down more quickly or is it the fact that the R p. process just doesn't choose the right player? I mean there's only four or five big players when you're talking about a big brand, putting out an R p. it's not like you have dozens and dozens and dozens of choices to work with. You're only working with one of the five big holding companies. So. How


important is in P in that process and how important is it that the relationships which is broken fundamentally? Yeah, a- at my quick answer would be yes and yes, so the process is broken and it's done poorly. The process doesn't yield the results. It should. And the process itself is broken and I would I would choose to hold it at least partially accountable for those bad outcomes. Because even though there are only four or five big choices for big global


camp campaigns in relationships, the trend here is to take a lot of the work that normally got led to those big agencies in house. And patching together more bits and pieces of agencies, especially on the creative side, and then perhaps going to more centralized buying process providers, whether on the agency cited as an intermediary or directly to the platform. So that whole dynamic is changing. And still I think that the


R p. process, which is. It's kind of like if if instead of using People who were dating just were given five really fancy nights out on the my method. It's like the bachelor or one of those T v. shows right. I'm going to I know I know it, Jonathan dozen, his spare time watches a whole bunch of these cheesy reality shows. You know, sort of like, you know, I'm going to choose my life mate. My soul, mate through a series of


orchestrated romantic encounters and hot tubs and on sandy barren beaches. And real relationships aren't formed that way. An- an- and that's kind of the R f. P process not to mention its done poorly. And I think to the other point with the relationship analogy without pushing it too far. No relationship is any is any good than any better than the day's Pryor's relationship, right? I mean, every day you need to renew a relationship, whether it's professional


or personal. And I liked the idea, this is the other pro. I think of this approach of replacing an R f. P which is saying, let's we're gonna now have a beauty pageant decided we're going to marry. And instead, let's actually construct a series of really nice doable dates that let us exhibit who we are to one another, and let us actually learn about each other and gets and see if we enjoy it, sort of build their relationship from a series of discreet events. You know, when I first heard this idea, I was agreeing with you wholeheartedly. I


mean, this idea of doing tests, projects so that you could actually test the relationship out, see whether or not it's a good relationship, see whether or not you get the right kind of service from this agency. It seems like a really great way to approach things, except that most of these agencies aren't sitting around with the staff ready to go to handle your account. I mean, they g- they get the account than they hire the staff in. Most of the time, the staff from the losing agency, but that's a whole nother point.


I mean, you know, so. You've you've got this situation where it's economically not feasible to truly handle on a cow in a test capacity, and even tests projects are just not financially. Sound enough are financially rewarding enough for any agency to really want to pursue it. So. It seems like the R p. process is. Kind of a given it, there's nothing we can do to get away from it. Even if we were


to bring in tests, projects. Tom, what's your take on this year? You're not actually in the agency world, but I'm sure you've been involved with the the peace process in some capacity. Given that you do with research. What's your take on this test projects or or fees, which is a better result? Well, first of all, I've heard we've heard an awful lot about that. This would be good for agencies, but I'm not


exactly clear on what the benefit for the brand is. I mean, I'm not there may be a correlation between the R f. P process and the relationship. I don't know, but. But they're also may not be they made they may just. Not perform very well, and that's why the relationships don't last I don't know. But I guess the first thing that struck me about the the article that spawned this debate is it's it's written by someone who has an agency saying that we should abolish the R f. P which is sort of like these articles are always written by agency people


agencies hate her face. Well, it's like an article written by a taxpayer saying we should we should end the tax payment process [laughter]. I get I get the benefit of the age. But my my question is and I I asked this out of ignorance because I need to know more about this world than I do. Given that what we're really talking about here with the peace process, as you say, are you know four or five large holding companies? An- and the kinds of brands that they represent, what


the heck is a test project, even look like? I mean it if I'm brand manager for tied pods and I want to announce a new Minty fresh flavor or something, what does it test project look like that? That is in keeping with the brand values and and it has some strategy behind it. I I'm I'm curious that I'd love to hear you guys wax on this because I don't know what a test project would look like for a brand


that has you know, multiple channels that significant sweeping, sweet of messages. What, what is a test project? Tom met a great point and and end in it. An pulls out, I think up it's a real short coming of the approach, and it's funny. I wrote down a quote from that same article. I read by the agency guy, he says, any states this as sort of a truism of of nature, quote advertising must work immediately and spontaneously to move real


people in the moment in the quote. So I think the guy who wrote the article is trying to define what that project looks like is something really little. You know, I we we have a Facebook page and we wanna work. We want to do it a tide by a beano the pod's project in poughkeepsie New York, and we want a target, you know, 30 something moms in that e- whatever who do a lot of laundry, but whatever the low is


defined as things so sharply. And so the specifically and then literally pushed the button and see whether or not the dials pop or maybe the proof men. And by the way, that's a real. That's a that's a real problem. Because too, I think the point you're both making. That's the short term. If occasion of brand strategy and I think that's bad news for Brown's name Mimi, we have to consider the fact that our fees are more effective or less effective. However, you wanna look at it, but our fees are kind of the name of the game at the big


agency level or the holding company level. But when you get into a smaller to mid size agency, the are fe- becomes less useful in terms of understanding how it is to work with an individual in tests or test projects become much more likely to reveal what kind of a working relationship you're going to have with this, this company. So maybe it's a it's a legitimate suggestion for the smaller to mid size relationships to go and just try a test project instead of


wasting your money with a search firm to try to get you know, 10 agencies to compete for you. When the reality is, you're not really getting any understanding of who the people are that you're going to be working with. Right. Well, what if I had not I mean what if I what if I field four or five tests projects with four or five different agencies and they all work? What why wouldn't I do that? Right? Why wouldn't I spread my risk a little bit? And if they did that?


If I did that, then you know why not just keep doing that. Why make a big commitment. Anyone, I think that's what's happening [laughter]. I mean, that's that's that Iran is is letting those projects and did look smaller buckets because you'll be miracle. Technology means they can all still be forced to talk to each other and integrating correlate and collaborate in all the other pop- popular buzzwords of the day. So I I think that that that's the shape of things to come. I still think though that this are I really want to come down hard. I I'm an agency. Alright. And


so I have a three people, and we only do tests, projects ravaged. We have no ongoing projects. We just do tests projects. I I choose to look at our business model to your point Tom about or Bob about small and medium sized agencies that I'm not looking for long term relationships. I'm looking for a relationship term relationship that I keep renewing. And I've given the opportunity to renew them in at the the challenge to me as the agency person is to define those projects in a way that are. That


that that have a chronology or direction and a build on one another said a not purely discreet little events, but. We won't take up the client unless we can start out with a UN initial Giga strategy gig for which we get paid. And we hold the line I do in our couple are of peas a year and hate myself every time I do them because they never work out. You sound dangerously like you're saying that you hold yourself accountable to results, which is like crazy talk from an agency is never hold


accountability for results. But we do an- an- an- an- and I've got to say it's the truth will set you free ice. I grew up at gray, I have a big agency in in my blood, but boy, I really much prefer to live and die by whether or not we are able to do what we said we were going to do in the time it was allotted to us because it gives us a sense of urgency in a focus. And inevitably, I don't want to sound to deliver confident but we generally hit our targets because it really


we we build it in, but I want to say one more thing about the our P thing. Just about how much I hate are of peas. And I'm sorry to em deserted. Can I make the point or the waters wet? But. I'm convinced that one of the great benefits and one of the reasons why and is a different conversation about agencies versus the management consultants who are trying to displace agencies as the a strategic advisers for brands. The one of the arguments for agencies is that what they're really good at air should be good at is not repub- responding to client


direction. But challenging client assumptions, but that's what the management consultants or source would say that they do as well. There are all about challenging assumptions and getting people to think differently, and they've got a much deeper relationship with the clan so well, but they don't have any experience in actually communicating or selling anything. So I mean, it's bullshit. I sorry for the French, but they're not what they're claiming. They're able to do date they technically can't do, and it's and it it shame on the


agencies for not stepping up and and maybe it's because they're though the big ones are all locked into this are if pe- sort of treadmill. But to be able to say, you know what? You're gave us an R p. to sell more pod's. The kids. That's a bad idea [laughter] and you know what? You should do x, y, z instead. And here's wine, here's how. And and well, that management consultancy.


What if with a advertising agency experience tangible, here's how. And by the way, where credible because we've done it a million times before and so I just I think that that that to me is the ultimate answer here is and maybe that happens in this guy's a- you know, as an outcome at his guys perspective on the the, the the discreet projects to be able to, you know, maybe it's easier to tell a client. Here's a different idea or approach Wamba. You know, when


the task is smaller, the remittance smaller than you know, here's the 160 country global re-met for tide, you know, for pods around the world. Well, okay, it's that's a gazillion dollar budget. I'm on a roll over and do that. Give at client exactly what they asked for. My my big issue, ongoing issue with the hatred of our fees. And yeah, I'm I'm not a big fan of our fees either, but our peas are designed for some very specific reasons. They're there to keep away from


nepotism men like favoritism in the process of awarding bids. I know it's not perfect, but they're they're designed to codify the process in which we choose an agency. So they serve a purpose there and brands tend to look at their agency relationships as vendor relationships. So that means getting the best price is often just as important as finding a good working relationship. So are fees again, they're really good at choosing people who had the best


price, you know, they weed out the people who are willing to give that price. So from a brand standpoint, I don't see any incentive to move to a test project process when the R p. delivers exactly what the brand is looking for, even if it's not perfect, even if it doesn't always work out, even if it doesn't always give you the best agency. At least you're getting all your boxes checked. And you're delivering an agency to the company, just like you were assigned to


do so. Why not? Why? Why would a brand not want to do in our fee? I mean, it sounds pretty logical, doesn't it, Tom? I mean, that's that's. Yeah, I I agree with you on a percent. I see plenty of upside on the agency side for this, but but not on the brand side and and 90% of people who work at a brand of a single mandate. Don't get fired [laughter]. And they are at PISA is processed it


to cover that it. But you know, just just piggy backing on something that Selig said earlier about. You know, it's test project that makes sense, might be to put together a strategy right drive together strategy, which shows how that agency thinks and and you get paid for it. But that's isn't that sort of what an R f. he does in in some sense it, it gives you a gives the brand is sense of your thinking. So I think what the original author of the article that were citing here really wants is to get paid to do are at


peace. Well, and that's always been the big problem with our fees is that you are being asked to do work for free, and that's an ongoing if soon. But a lot of people do not want to be involved with a lot of agents. You give up ownership, right? So how many times have you heard stories? And I know people who've gone through it where they've given creatives back in up in a in a tender spot, stone are a fee, and then goes, Emma. Get not when the business in his see some version of it appear later on. That's common. So I I


I think heating from the Asian seaside hating the are P process is legit, and I'll just say, again Alba brand side while there's no upside for China or that there's only downside for changing because they're at, you know, that broke off everybody in the brand is check checking a box. I gotta say, according to body count, we won the Vietnam war. So you know, that's that's a horrible example of a very, very true. No, but think about it. It was a big data check the box.


Analysis, that led to be absolute horror, flick blunder that was that experience for the Vietnamese and for we in American for everybody in the world. So it's not I'm not trying to be a good citizen here in save brands from themselves, but a very successful are if peace process from the brand perspective can be absolutely the worst thing for the brand. Yeah, wrong. Good points, good points all, but we got to move on. I'm going to talk next about this wonderful situation of brand


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thank them very much for the support of our show. Still one of my favorite adds to read ever guys [laughter] get the talk about chocolate. [laughter] well, next up the brand safety debate primarily concentrates on the issue of running adjacent to questionable content, but what about questionable ads? Jonathan publishers seemed to constantly be battling for control over the types of ads that appear on their site. So are we as advertisers than much more danger from


other ads than we are from the content that we run against? Your thought about this? Yeah, and and the the short answer is I'm I'm of mixed mind on at Bob, because on 1 hand, the idea that my my branded con- my my ad could be surrounded by content, whether it's editorial or entertainment or commercial that's titillating and border line,


offensive and otherwise attractive to eyeballs. It's kinda why I'm there. So I mean, this is a a longstanding tradition in brand advertising, right? I mean, I I think back to you, what were those marketers thinking when they when they're sitting on a big table wearing white shirts and thin black ties, and you know pocket protectors and saying, you know, our our brand needs to be on Gilligan's island. Yes. That is where we need to be. And


it's the same extension here up to the present day, which is it's one of these sort of like, let's dance as close to the fire as we possibly can because it gets hotter and better for us. But there is that risk on a brand safety risk that road it becomes unsafe when you go when when that line gets pushed or the wind gets crossed. So I'm not sure. I guess I I struggle with w- what is the what is the potential downside


to the brand for that adjacency? What is the carry over the that the article that prompts this conversation talked about a concept called hedonic contamination? I have no idea what that [laughter]. I don't even know what that means. I think people just makeup worthy. This would be the first time in history than add person made up a word. I'm not really sure what to do with this. I mean, it's this great, great, great, great band name. Now someone, someone,


we're it and demolition, someone notified the Oxford dictionary because we've got a new word for, you know, firm for me. I mean, I know that we dance close to the fire, and I'm actually I actually think the whole brand safety issues way overblown. You get a bunch of bad press because, oh my gosh, you're adds a running on ISIS videos, but the take downs happen immediately, and everybody knows that no brand is actually


reeling or wanting to be adjacent to this type of content, especially on YouTube. And we understand that it's a slight. There's a certain amount of. Problems involved with getting into these ad networks, you buy a programatic by in your ads, going to appear on sites that you don't necessarily intended to be appearing on, and you've got to be careful but policing those types of things. And that's on the brands to deal with. But the problem of being adjacent to other ads is something that you really have absolutely no


control over you, you. You don't know what. I mean, you could be right next to a National Rifle Association ad and never know it if you're Greenpeace or if you're pita. You know, it's just like you have no idea where you're at is going to be running what? What you're at is going to be running next to even if you're policing the content, even if you're making sure you're only on sites that are are waitlisted and okay, and you're making sure the YouTube is not running you


adjacent to any kinds of really terrible pieces of content. You still could be adjacent to an ad that his Nebraska, hence level to your brand. And I don't think there's any way to get around this other than not by pro grammatically. Okay, well Bob isn't so the programatic a I- is in its infinite digital wisdom deciding that there some commonality amongst that, the viewer of that website that that would make them interested in


an NRA video commercial as well as a pita commercial, right? It's not happenstance. It's not chance. There is some underlying sort of evil machine intelligence thing that's deciding. That there's a reason for both those spots to air even adjacent to one another. So often when you're talking about an ad network, I mean, I'm not meaning to besmirch ad networks because it's like not all of them have learned reprehensible ethics, but


ultimately the one deciding factor about whether you're ad runs with another add is how much money my making in can I get away with it? And those are the type of situations that you're you're y- you can vet the ad network as much as you possibly can, but mistakes happen, and sometimes they're not mistakes. Sometimes it's just a matter of like shoving as many ads is possible right next to each other. That may have zero connection with each other. I mean. Yeah,


I guess I guess what you're saying could be correct in the sense that if you police your your key words, if you can, if you police the ways that you're targeting your audience, you're not going to end up on a site that another advertiser who is advertising something that you don't agree with could possibly be on. But. What's the keep that other advertiser from saying, I just want to be everywhere you know, right since like like if I want to be everywhere the ad network just puts it everywhere. It doesn't have


any way to to keep that ad from being adjacent to your head. Well, go ahead. Thomas, I y- I mean the whole I don't know. I get the brand safety issue from the content side, right? I mean, if you are an advertiser you want to do you want to be associated with that content or not? That's that's pretty clear connection to me. Actually don't get this as an issue because it's it's based on the premise that one ad can lower


someone's opinion of another ad, and I don't think we can actually get any lower in our opinion of advertisers. And it's actually kind of funny to me that even having this discussion, I think people hold. The whole those two thoughts in their head that you know it or not in the same way that it did they do with content. I mean, I think with content at content running crappy ads is sort of like the shopping mall, but has the radio shack in the orange Julius in it. It's probably not the best mall in town,


but the real. The real question to me though, is if your if your ad shows up next to some kind of of an objectionable ad. Then you will you have advertised on a channel that allows objectionable ads. Why did you do that? Yeah. Why did you do that? And I don't know why you did that. But but that's it, that's the whole thing you're you're not advertising on a channel necessarily. That's allowing bad adds because you're advertising on a


network. That is putting your ad on a whole bunch of different channels and these channels don't necessarily know what ads are running adjacent to each other. It really comes down to open ended. Trust of any kind of ad network is just not a reasonable stance to take if your brand at has any interest in your brand safety. I mean, you just can't put together an ad by via pragmatic solution without


understanding that your ad is going to be running adjacent to all kinds of things that you don't find to be palatable unless you are on top of it, which really takes away the whole magic of programatic in the first place by making humans involved in the process. Again, to make sure that this stuff is being policed. Well, you just set it though. You just said it. That's the answer in in the article that source for this. The cheap brand officer P and g's saying that that's exactly what they're doing, their


hand picking the content. So I mean, if you're okay with the machine doing the work than you have to be okay with the results. Right and and and Tom, and I think your point earlier about. If only people held advertising to a higher standard in actually paid attention enough to really ca- again, what it what I- what is the unit of measurement for measuring hedonic? Contamination [laughter]. Is there a meter? Is there a dial you know? I mean I- I- if only


it if there was some proved from a research perspective, you know that said that that that's a thing. Then maybe it would be a thing, but I- if this and the that's to the Bob to your point about brand safety, it just dumb. If only people cared more. I I did there many other issues about brand. A presence and awareness that I think. Are much more relevant to a conversation about safety, such as those videos on on YouTube of. ISIS terrorists that we mentioned earlier, wearing Nike t


shirts and things like that. I mean, there are a lot of really funky things happening in the branding world. That safety issue. Toyota, Toyota, the brand devices. I mean, at the end of it, there's nothing you can do about that except maybe in police better whose buying your cars. Yeah, yeah. So that the then too again, so that the idea that you're you're spot, you're you're you're you're at is appearing next to something that you might not agree with. You I or or as


bad? I again to Tom's point. I think it's less conceptual and theoretical and idea driven conflict, and it's more simply. The general trend toward crappy stuff generating more attention because it's past sex appeal or its offensive, or its Dom adages denigrates the entire platform on which what your ads appearing. Now, when you lower viewers, expectations for stuff. They even if you meet their


expectations by definition there less, they get less. So I think that's the bigger problem. But there's two things that I have researched. I don't think there's any research out there that says one ad hurts and other addict. I could be wrong about that. But we've all we've all done things that we're not proud of. You know, some of us spent time in jail. Some of us like me worked on spreading smooth, jazz in the nineties through research [laughter]. And there's


two things I can tell you from that experience number one. That's that smooth jazz had halo effect on the average advertiser. The app, the average advertiser was kind of classed up by being on a smooth jazz station. But the other thing that we learned and this is absolutely true is that if you're listening to fifteen minutes of smooth jazz and then a a screaming skateboard shop ad comes on. You just torpedoed fifteen minutes of great content. And and that's very, very true. But does that


screaming skateboard shop, add on a smooth jazz station torpedo. The car dealer added comes after it. I really don't think so. But it it definitely could because it could force you to go off of the station. I mean, it's just like your torpedoing the content. So you're leaving the station at that point, you're saying, I don't want to listen to this ad and you never hear the Cadillac ad. And I think that's the big problem when we're talking about digital placement is as soon as you see that ad that's offensive. You see nothing else, but that out on the page.


Well, in the in the example, I just gave the problem there is that at desperate sales team trying to make quota, let that on the air. And that's that's really what we're talking about. Your programatic will let that on the air were a long ways off from it not. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I want to talk next about a study. The proof is media. Did which completely replicated a study that you did Tom [laughter] about a year ago.


Then an extensive research among heavy users of voice activated devices and drew a range of interesting conclusions which surprisingly mirrored a lot of the same conclusions of your studies suck. The seemingly most interesting part being that parents and families or the heaviest early adopters. So Tom, let's move away from the fact that they've just replicated the research that Edison research to head and just talk about the actual actual premise here. Assuming this is true that


parents and families of the heaviest early adopters, how does this impact the kinds of strategies that brand should be deploying in the voice activated space? What's your take on that? Well, we've actually, as you mentioned, done a lot of research. We've done two significant studies with N p. R and another one with Pandora. Really looking at how people use these in the end, that there's a lot of great insights in the pupils this study as well. And it is true that if you are a parent with children at home, you are you are


more likely to own one of these devices. And one of the main reasons that people give for buying them is to entertain children's huge, huge number there. It should use these devices entertained children. And it starts with the little things like my daughter doesn't have to ask me to put this song on spot. I file my laptop anymore. She can just ask for it herself. But what's what's really fascinating about all of these things put


together? And we did ethnographic research where we moved into people's homes and and survey work as well. What we saw here were families listening to audio together. And there hasn't been like a family gathered around a radio since the Palmolive beauty box hour of 19 38 right? It's that's just not how can we listen to radio anymore. But this is a radio in the living room. That is playing content that is being consumed by groups and after 10 years of little white


ear buds in everybody's years. That's kind of a thing. It's kind of an interesting shift in how we consume media is that a show after is that it is just a blip on the radar. Is this something that it could be a nominally considering the fact that it's a new cool, shiny object, everybody in the room is involved with it, and eventually nobody's going to be doing this anymore. Now, I completely disagree with that because what that that treats the smart speaker, like it's the little cylinder can that that sits on your countertop


but that's not what it is. It's a voice assistant and that's acknowledge is going to be baked into everything. No, I know you must understand. You misunderstand. I'm not saying that the voice activated and the other is a flu gird, just bad. I'm talking about the whole idea of us all gathered round the radio. Is that something that was actionable in terms of a long term insight or trend? Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's it's going to change content. I know I can tell you for a fact


that there are plenty of of media media channels out their immediate and content producers that are kind of re orienting themselves around the concept of social audio again and it honestly it's it is really, really crucial for brands. I think to have a holistic audio strategy that's not just about the having content or pod cast or shows, but also skills and also understanding how people talk about them and how


people ask for things related to them with voice assistance. Because pretty soon that's how we're going to get our media. We're going to ask our we're going to ask devices for it. And. Because we're asking for it in groups, and we know that the majority of people who have smart speakers do that, they actually use them to entertain people. Then you actually have an incredible opportunity to for increased reach. Right, instead of just that one person reading the banner ad or having the the Indian browser


experience, you potentially could reach a whole family by having an audio strategy that takes this into account. It's it's a definite phenomena. So that shows me that there's a real need for maybe if we're going to do advertising, weaken target, specifically the entire family in or target ads in a family oriented setting. But it doesn't really answer the question about the the bigger strategies that we could potentially employee given the


fact that we know that a family is gathered around this unit. Should we be more focused on the ad potential that reality, or should we be focused more on this the service opportunities that are available? The fact that we're we've got the family engaging with this unit so heavily. Well, it said this. This is a consultant question, irk insult an answer, I should say. But the answer is both because what the ad can do is. Is make you aware of the


skill? And what the skill can do is provide the service at a to go hand in hand. So the the advertising strategy I think on a native add that is that is native to a smart speaker, should be about the skill. And a skill is what provides the service. The skill is what, what, what can surprise and delight the consumer, and the consumer of that brand in the end, the user of that media. So I did it with the two together. That's the that's the real strategic


aspect to it. Wow, this is this is really fascinating from from my standpoint because you know, I I didn't think that the findings were all that revolutionary, but when you think about it in terms of the things that we've been saying about voice activated units on the show over the last few months, it dubbed tales really nicely into this idea of its gotta be a blend. It's got gotta be very service oriented in that goes back to some of the things that Farah Boston is set on the program


before as well. That we've got to stop thinking about. And opportunities is being purely about outbound messaging and be more about what kind of ways can buy advertising or add like objects serve the consumer in a meaningful way. Jonathan, anything that you would want to add on on this idea? I mean, it's the slave in terms of. The opportunity that it's available when you have a family unit listening to this device or interacting with this device on a regular basis and


being the primary consumers of this type of technology. Yeah, there's a couple of quick thoughts. One, um. It it it, to me, my immediate thought is that, um. A voice activation an- an- an- oral experience with a family is akin to putting apple computers into schools, 15 20 years ago at the long term effect, is that you have all those kids in those families growing up with this idea


that their primary online interface isn't visual. It's oral. And an audio, and that changes fundamentally how we as advertisers look at simply the medium were using to talk to them. And to Tom's point it is kind of like the radio theater, the nineteen thirties were really were looking at you. We've so much of what we talked about over the past couple of years, it's been about the visual nature of all my inexperienced beat the YouTube at all. The idea video is being the new


common currency for for communicating about brands or about anything you want. If it's actually audio. I that changes fundamentally how we think about how we talked with not only how brands talk to consumers, but how consumers talk to one another and what they share specifically to that brand presence in the home with that family. I think the the the opportunity to to Bob your point of not talking about ways to just market brand


attributes, but providing those skills and services that that that Tom's talking about is profound, right? So you know, not only do I have spot fi- on our family Amazon account on the Amazon echo in our kitchen. But what if Coca Cola were providing us with some audio service that was helpful to our lives, that the the experience of that service wasn't directly related to the grand attributes of drinking


colored carbonated water? But were related to my fond feelings toward coke is a brand, and its presence in my life. So we could be everything from helping me find ingredients, sir figure out. Whereas my units of measurement service provided by you J Crew on my home echo or whatever. I, I think it opens up the potential for the basis of conversation between brands and consumers really makes it just a whole new new


country of a potential opportunity. And I love that idea is any glue glued, so constrained trying to think of how do we use these new media? To kind of market the same old garbage that we were marketing on Gila gagged my point. I Gilligan's island back in the nineteen sixties. Let's instead kind of look at how do we use it to enable and empower people to live more productive and happy lives. And by the way, promote our brand attributes and principles and and purpose, and ultimately sell


more stuff. So it I to me, I also I I'm a I'm a Tom on the side, I miss one. I think that it's profoundly directional. The relevant to wear things are going both from a how we interface with online experience. What our interface unit it medium is. And also what that means for the content we create on the up marketing and appetite brand side. I think its profound. I it. By the way it's a good thing. We were like, what I keep wondering about his work whenever brands going to realize


that Alexa. Sorry to set off a whole bunch of devices, but she changed its name. She she's getting all the attention. She's getting all the interaction in personality on the device. Oh, I'm wondering when a brands going to figure out that our brand needs to have a voice, our brand needs to have a personality, and that a eyes will be multiplied on these devices beyond the initial personalities so


that you know, you not just dealing with, you know, the words are dealing with Bob from Pepsi earn, you know, John from coke or whatever, you know, some kind of personality so that you have an interaction that's ingrained almost like the Pillsbury dough boy used to be in terms of ads. It was a character that you immediately associated with thanksgiving dinners and Christmas dinners, etcetera. Maybe these brands can have


personalities on these devices, and that's the next step so that you don't have to be creating an ad every single time. You just need to form a real a I relationship with the customer that's useful and beneficial to the motor ongoing basis. But that is a totally cool idea, right? So I could talk that I could talk to Betty Crocker. Right. Why does she live on my on my device and why or why am I talking to her about menu stuff instead of Alexa? Please hot again.


[laughter]. I'm saying, so someone someone out there, hire me with that idea, I'm ready to go, but it go ahead. You know, every brand has the opportunity to have their own Butterball Turkey hotline. Right? I mean that that's that's essentially what it is. I mean, if I'm if I'm cooking something and I realized I don't have any sour cream, and I could just shout into the ether what's a good substitute for sour cream and the daisy people tell me that's that's a service. That's great. And I think it also


going to tell you the power of voice and the power of audio branding is super, super strong, and I've spent almost my entire research career on it when you hear Tombo debts voice on the radio and no, you know what brand it is, you know it and I that is such a powerful pole that so many brands have forgotten about. And if if they can invest in that holistic audio strategy and think about being service first. There are so many wonderful opportunities with smart speakers.


Well, our last topic of the evening before we run out of time, you u2 made a move to appear more like television buys for brands, making it so that they get paid, whether not a or not. Yes, it sounds just like T v. but isn't this just them getting paid for not delivering an ad, Tom? What's your take on YouTube move? Is this kind of a necessity for the evolution of digital media buying to get paid for an impression or get paid for replacement, as


opposed to a result or a clique? Or is this or even a view? What's your take on that? Well, I I I agree with what YouTube is done here. I know it sounds stupid. I think if if the uninitiated you like, why would why would you pay for something that wasn't delivered? But you know, first of all we have to define isn't delivered because five seconds of it, it could be delivered. And I think what you're seeing here is they're tired of giving


way five free seconds of advertising to everybody in the country. There is there is a value in those initial five seconds if you use them wisely, and I think they're right to call that out. I really do. I mean it it's. You know, it's it's do you do you treat you to like its television, or do you treat it like it's digital, or do you treat it like it's? It's kind of both. And if you treat it like it's kind of both, then. I think this makes a lot of sense, and I think brands are just going to have to get used to it because they're getting those five seconds free. It's even


in direct marketing one a one. When you think about it because under a direct marketing one a one we learn that even a no is is an interaction and the fact that they're taking the time to click that skipping add button shows a certain amount of interaction with the ad. Even though it's a no it's say it's giving you as a brand, some kind of important data point about whether or not you're ad is as effective as it could be a maybe you need to make some changes so that you get a yes, the next time.


But why isn't the ad five seconds long? Well, they they are serving six second ads, but I don't think that every single add needs to be six seconds. And I think that having longer stories is not the problem. I think the problem is the assumption that, oh, if no, somebody didn't last through to six or seven seconds, it somehow it's the fault of the media instead of it's the fault of the ad, and we're learning something as an advertiser, by that


interaction, that interaction is valuable to us, and instead were distributing it as if it's not valuable at all. And I agree with Tom, I think that this is definitely something that you two needed to do in order to gain the respect of of television advertisers, and also from a standpoint of showing why there are more valuable than television, that they're actually giving you insight into why you're ads not working. Well, no, they just give you insight that they're not working. They're


not telling you why. Oh, y-. Yeah, I guess so. I mean, it's this, but you do get a lot more data from a YouTube interaction than you do from a television. No, you have no idea that someone's going to the bathroom or going in for fear, true. You know, it's just like at least you're getting some kinda hover. You're getting hover information about where the the arrow is going from the beginning. It's just like whether or not it's just going right to the skip at or it's going someplace else. You get in all


kinds of data that is useful to you, and you're getting it for free and YouTube saying, no, you shouldn't get this for free. And I I have to agree. I think that that's definitely a useful piece of information that you can use for improving your programatic going further. Brown and YouTube look YouTube has the right to make money if you don't like it don't buy ads on YouTube. But you know if if I am a. If I'm tied to bring them back into this,


then why not? Why not fled YouTube with six second ads that say this content is being brought to you for free by tasty but deadly tide pods. [laughter] exact and that and that's it. And that links that is powerful. Right. Right, absolutely. No. And we again, I think, Bob, we've talked about this in the past. We have a we have an ongoing game here in my house where my wife and I'll be watching t broadcast television and watching a commercial and and counting the seconds


before we can figure out what the hell it is. They're selling. And sometimes you know it, it takes a long time, odd sandwich meat or all its floor polish. And that idea that again, this sort of long wind up that is built into somebody's creative narratives that get past any of them in a boardroom with the dealt with the lights down and up shades drawn. And a rapt attention audience the content makes a lotta sense, but you're right in practice after yet with the option after six seconds. The viewer is going to go, yes.


I've no idea what is going on. I don't care. And that's useful information. And if France can act upon that information and make better advertising than you, right, it's a win win and YouTube chicken paid for it. But I I get back to I mean health we have fifteen seconds. He be commercials. I don't know why we just don't go for six second YouTube commercials and full stop were out [laughter] I think you too would have something to say about that because they sell six second ads and they get paid for the thinking of a skip option for them that. Well, it's time for the ad


fell five but before we get to that segment of the show, I do want to take this opportunity to thank my guests again and allow them the each a shameless plug starting with Jonathan Selam Baskin even find him@arcadia That's the home of her Katya communication lab. Tell us what's going on in your world, Jonathan, what would you like to promote your author? You'll root for Forbes to write and all kinds of cool stuff. Yeah, I was. I was a communist for Forbes and for advertising age. Now, just a writing on medium because I have no editor and


I happen to enjoy that. And Arcadia does a lot of work, and we focus on be to be businesses publicly listed companies who want to talk about innovation worldwide. But I want to tout a personal project. I just wrote a musical [laughter] way, way way, and it's ad measurement. The I'm I'm looking to get it produced and it's a musical based on the Nicholson, morally experiment to discover the ether in the late


eighteen eighties. Now, that might sound it at the way. I I've been marketing. It is Arcadia meats spring awakening. And it's a hoot, and as songs had has words, it's like a thing. So I encourage people to go visit. I am. I'm looking for any and all feedback, and it was a labor of love for the past couple of years. And I finally went live a couple of weeks ago and. I'm definitely scared what people will think, but I'm thrilled to have accomplished it. So that's my son's send an


email my way. I know some producers, though I'll call them now. Next up, we have Tom Webster, you can find him@edison and a whole bunch of other places, which I'm sure he'll tell you about because he does pod cast, see does books. He does speaking, he does all kinds of cool stuff. So tell us what's going on in your world, Tom, what would you like to promote? Well, I've just written a musical about Jonathan [laughter] all Jonathan, the musical [laughter]. It's another guy, oh, it's called.


It's called Baskin. [laughter]. It's he Dominic contamination [laughter]. Do you think we've we've put out a slew of free research lately, the infinite dial, which is our kind of flagship study of the auto industry came out last month. We also just came out with the infinite dial Canada, and we are soon to come out with the infantile Australia. So it's like a franchise now, Bob. But the the thing I really


want to promote is April 19th. Those coming up very soon will be the 2018 release of the pod cast consumer, which is our definitive study of of the pod cast audience that demographically habits and all kinds of a good stuff for people who listened to shows just like this one little tidbits, or any hints or any kind of pieces of information you can share about it. Well, one that we did already put out an infinite dial, which is a I think the


biggest shift in pod casting for years. The average weekly pod cast listener listen to five by casts a week. And that number didn't change for a while. But this year it, it ticked up the seven. And that's a significant shift. And then a big reason for that is the introduction of so many new kind of daily topical pod cast like up first in the daily. And I don't know vox and bus feed have have their own entries and things like that. So just increasing the top


accountability of hot casts. Our convincing people to add extras into their routine. So that's kind of a big shift. That's awesome. That's definitely interesting. As for me for more information about me or the show visit, the bean cast a calm there, you can find a complete show archive. You can find out how to consult with me, can even find out how to advertise on the program. So check it out@the bean cast dotcom and don't forget we now have transcription services available through transcribed The transcripts or posted when I get a


chance about a few days to a week after the show airs. But if you need to get a transcript of anything were saying. Go there, and if you want to thank our sponsor, just go to transcribe me dotcom and use the offer code being cast. You're going to get a discount off your your order. So check it out there. And now it's time for the ad fell five or run down of the lowest moments in advertising marketing and public relations from the last week. And first stop. I thought this was pretty clever. I did I lost the call, this


a fell, but it was kind of a fell in the port of Augusta, Augusta in the PGA masters tournament have brands of certain gravitas. So it's not a surprise that they decided the ban the shelving of dilly dilly at their event. Now, unfortunately, they didn't anticipate Budweiser's parent. Ibm beds. Ingenuity is the beverage maker, made the problem even more visible by making and distributing encouraging fans to wear dilly dally shirts. I fought Jonathan. This was so clever on the part


of a b m Bevan so tone deaf on the part of the PGA I guess Augusta National in particular. Yeah, I I am. I am and I love the irascible sort of in your face aspect of it like at like I know you do Bob, I but I I would argue that this is just this is sort of a guy who is what I got two words for you. Body count. It's just it's it's more it in Bev, a sort of death, spiral marketing, where they're winning a


battle and losing a war. So make a big stink at in front of a bunch of golfers who cares [laughter]. I don't think they're going to be drinking. You [laughter] exactly. Now nothing says that the industry may have a collective drinking problem, Tom quietly W p. p.'s new rules of health work of alcohol consumption. Mainly that people are getting a little out of hand at work event drinking and they're putting some caps on it. I thought this was the funniest thing I've


read in a long time [laughter]. Yeah, you know. But at that, those caps exists in every other industry to they're just called common sense [laughter]. [laughter]. Honestly, but I just back on the on the dilly daily thing, I think dillydally just joins it the proud heritage of things banned from Augusta, National like women and blacks [laughter] great, great group to be an yet. Well, Tim cook CEO of apple through


shade, of Mark Zuckerberg, O of Facebook in a recent interview, Jonathan, because like apple has, nothing to hide, has no baggage. I mean, this seems so weird to me that he would be so Vera Lynn and so critical of Mark Zuckerberg, sandlin or Facebooks handling of his data situation when they handle so much data. And they haven't have don't have a spotless record. Yeah, and are not spotless on a whole bunch of other shoes, dear point Bob right on in terms of supply


chain and e- whatever. I mean, the the nobody's clean and a thing, no, it every every C o. in every industry lives at a glass house. But I will say what I find refreshing is at least he fricken stands for something and it may be full. It may be a Swiss cheese full of holes thing, but this idea where you know your your corporate script, the CEO script needs to be, you know, vetted, and an- and homogenized and and, and


pasteurized it. They've I hate it. I have I maybe it's the hopeful part of me just I I'm thinking there's an element of integrity and truth in this opinion, and it may not be perfect at a may not be complete, but I find it refreshing. So I say it's a win. Well, it's just like I while I agree with him on this center, I agree with you on the fact that it was hard felt from him. I just think that it's poor, moved from a P r. standpoint, considering that your company is not completely


clean is just opening up the doors for all kinds of exposes the calm. Some. Well, next up for some reason, grinder the gay hookup up was sharing data, such as H I. V status, Tom, with 2 3rd party data optimization companies. You know, when you're talking about your H I. V status, that's something that is kind of something you want to keep private. It's like you might put it on your grinder account because


you want to make sure that you're with. Only partners who have a similar status as you, but that doesn't mean that you're giving permission for this data to be shared widely. I don't even have a joke about this. I think every just about anybody on line is, is going to have their Cambridge analytic a moment at some point. And I'd honestly it's you know, to use my friend Mark shapers phrase it. There's a malignant complexity to all of this data that I don't think we are ever going to be able to get our hands around in


an any other brand looking at. This shouldn't be saying there, but for the grace of whoever, they should be saying we're next because it's going to happen everybody. I think it's not a matter of if but when and we all have to be that way. I mean, the hackers always say it's not a matter of if you're going to get hacked, it's a matter of when and how you respond to it matters. And finally read it was found to be running an ad for a whites only dating site that warned white women to breed with


whites only or watch the race perish. No. This, I mean, you know where to begin with us read it pulled the ad very very quickly. But this the fact that this even got through is not good for them [laughter]. I'd say I learned something from from their ad though. And. If I were still in the looking for love game, which [laughter] which I'm which I'm not thanks to being married to frequent being cast as temps in Webster.


I learned a great pickup line and that is a baby. I'd like to court you with the explicit objective to continue our lineage [laughter]. That's what every woman whites that here [laughter] have something to add to this list or just want to discuss it. Comment on line use the hash tag add fell five that's pound add and the number five. Well, that does it for this week's show if you'd like to subscribe to this pod cast visit our website up the being cast dotcom and click on the subscribe link.


If you're Nigerians listener, we've also provided the direct link to the eye teens music store, or just search for the beam cast in the pod cast directory of vitamins, and whichever pod cast director you use when you subscribe. Please leave a review. Got a comment. Have a question we'd love to hear from you. Just send your emails to being cast a G mail. Dotcom opening theme was performed by Joseph Cambell closing theme by sea jacks. Thanks for listening. I'm Bob nor p- we'll be back again next week. Hope you'll


join us then. It's




Cool beans.