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BeanCast 492 Transcript

BeanCast 492: Olympus Has Fallen


Date: 17-Apr-2018

Input sound file: 0492_The_BeanCast_Marketing_Podcast_Olympus_Has_Fallen

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This episode of the bean cast is brought to you by flava natural, see for yourself, what a super burst of love animals can do for your brain and physical health. Good. If Lebanon Israel's dotcom and use the offer code Bob for 20% off, your first order banned with provided by recursive squirrel, interactive transcription services provided by transcribe, be dotcom visit them on the web@transcribed cast for up to twenty-five percent off. That's transcribe me. Dotcom episode


492 Olympics has fallen. For Monday April 16 2018 it's time for this week's edition of the being cast a weekly


discussion about the news and issues facing marketers today. Come your host, Bob normal. Thanks for joining us. Cooperation between agency partners as the dream of every brand manager. However, making it happen is easier said than done. Still p and g has a plan, they think will form more productive cross agency. Cooperation


can at work. Tonight will discuss also hell innovating retail may mean ending it deciding when you've over corrected for brain safety, where the reverse up fronts should be a thing. Plus this week's at fell five. That's the lineup. Lets me tonight's nights. Thanks for joining us for this week's been cast on Bob nor and


with me on the panel for this evening, we start with a supervisor at the innovations scout author, speaker, mister Joseph Jaffe pay Joe. Hello, Bob, I liked to be referred to is superb. Even though I created a title for myself, it still sounds good [laughter]. I'm sure we'll learn more about the innovation scouts somewhere. Probably of birth shameless plugs at the end of the show, but congratulations on that move. Also joining us. We have the president and chief creative officer of all scope, mash burn,


amass burn enterprises company, Mr. Jonathan Sackett. Hey, Jonathan. Bob Dole hug is doing. Esoteric question, I'm not really sure how to answer that [laughter]. Let's go for. I'm doing fine. Well, I want to jump right into the topics because we got a big one that came up late in the week. P and g is continuing its strong arm efforts to force agencies into what it deems to be more productive, working relationships. So instead of bringing in


competing shops on test projects against the incumbent partners there, instead seeking to augment the existing partner with team members from other agencies to work together on projects. Now, this is obviously a new paradigm. We've often seen agencies thrown together having to work together in various capacities, but rarely have we seen it so that they're forced to work together on the same team. With a single leadership from the partner agency, sir, Jonathan, the


front AMIS model is something we all are used to in the outer world. Does this solutions solve the cooperation probably problem or simply exacerbate the situation? What's your take on P and g's move? And is it palatable for the industry to take advantage of. Yeah, I think okay, men like this is what a loaded question I've met. I got on. Okay, so we anybody who knows my background? I was. I was ahead of North America for Ogilvy. Okay. Yeah,


before that I was the head of the Chicago office for Didi be now here's the deal. I don't care what anybody says, and I don't know if it's a product or a symptom of the people that get into advertising, but people that are in advertising generally speaking, do not work well together. Now when we're selling network solutions, right, be it Ogilvy or any of these other big guns. The even the people in different offices of the same company do not work well together. Historically, that's just


the way it goes. So I think I think what they're doing by trying to force integration, it may work, it may not, but I think there's a bigger problem out there, which is going to be staffing because. You know how, how does it how do you get your people paid? How does the staffing plan work? Because that's what advertising agencies do. They're they're basically to sell you a staffing plans. You get the smartest people on it. It's there there forcing something that that is going to be difficult to get to work because you guys know as well as I


do. Competing offices. Don't work well together. Let alone a network of the same offices working well together. It's a it's going to be a tough sell, but they're not trying to force one company together with another company. They're actually cherry picking talent from one agency partner in saying, hey, you guys go be part of this agency for this project and work on it. In a lotta ways, it's kind of genius in that it makes you have the Stockholm


syndrome type effect were here. You know, you gonna go [laughter] riveted. You've been abducted by this other agency and you slowly get absorbed into their culture. And you get the benefit of both agencies working, and the one is both agencies are being paid and they're not in a key part of such a competitive situation were trying to undercut each other constantly with each others. Ideas. No, you're right. Now I was I was


going to say kind of the any genius could be evil, genius, and and areas and the word. The word sadistic comes to mind [laughter]. You know, this is this is in part one of those cases where. The big brands bullies in this case p and g because they're the by and because of the money, what they say goes, and you know pretty much all the way it, even at a holding company level, these Gaza powerless to bell to resist.


And and be able to kind of draw a line in the sand. And the one thing I wanted to add before we leave. The first part behind is Saint, Jonathan has been too kind even still gave about companies within the within the same holding company by Nazi together, even within one company within one holding company, you don't even have departments playing nicely together. I mean, this is the advertising business where way of full for the longest time, the


creatives have always been able to bully around the suits and the different departments in terms of, you know, a great ideas or or big ideas can come from any one as long as it's the creative director. So you've got this kind of. History of this paranoia, this, this new roses, this this inability to collaborate and cooperate and said, the genius part of it to your point is in a ways forcing


these very small narrow minded people departments or even a psyche. I'm to be able to have to open themselves up and and collaborate in uncomfortable situations. And let's be honest, that's the way the world is working today. If you're a brand amusing back backlogs in the shallow, when you can get ideas through a variety of influence on micro influenza and an advocate and advocates and and crowd sourcing. So why the hell do you even


need to go inside one agency or even holding company when whenever when pretty much the entire world is at your disposal? Well, you know, Joe, that's a good point. I think you're you're absolutely right about infighting absolutely. But if you don't mind, I want to tell you a quick scenario and I won't mention any agency names like horizon. But back [laughter]. I've going on the attack now. Get ready. Back when I was


at the Martin agency and we did all the guy Costa f- the the media agency for guy goal was horizon, horizon media. So what happened was when I first got to Martin I called horizon, I to the powers that be there, and they wouldn't return my calls. And I said, well, here's what I'm finding out is happening that they're doing a media by in isolation of creative, and they're throwing it over the fence to us. Okay? We need 500 banners through 300 television commercials, whatever. And I was like, well, wait a minute. There's a better


way to do this, and they wouldn't even returned my call. And then finally the assistant to whoever they're called my assistant and said, well, ask Sackett what he wants. Click worldwide on a better product, but what you're describing, what you're describing is a much bigger problem that's not about cooperation between the agencies as much as it is an endemic problem across the relationship between mediates agencies and creative partners. I mean that that's true, but


would it but this is an industry wide. This is an industry wide problem. This is nice. And I just think that these guys are I think with what these guys are going to do by trying to force that collaboration, he if it works great, but getting admit in a better product comes out of it. That's wonderful. But I'm telling you it's just going to be an uphill battle. You know, something that I really want to pay attention to you, though is what the advantage that p and g can get out of it and by extension, what other brands could get out of a situation


like this that is beneficial to them. And the first thing that came to my mind is that you want to have as many creative minds working on your problem. Your problem is possible. But at the same point, you want to make sure that you maintain continuity and consistency across all your efforts. So I don't see it. I don't see necessarily a downside of pudding, say a digital team from another agency in the


same group as the general advertising team that's going to town on on the general ad campaign. And this like in due to bring those two teams together to work hip hip by Hawaii north. The expression is I'm like mixing metaphors, but. You know, you know what I'm saying, you know to have these two different teams with two different disciplines working together on the same team with the same boss. Not being answering to a whole nother set of


your goal. Operational concerns. I mean, it makes a lot of paper. It does. It does. It does on paper, but but but again, did you ever see the movie miracle? Yeah. Okay. Do you remember Kurt Russell worries giving giving the speech of white dream teams don't work? He told them, but it's been a long time when you're talking about if look for the sake of the listeners. Miracle is the story of the miracle on ice the nineteen Eighty-four hockey team. That


a broad, the a u s hockey team. The brought home, the gold against the Russians were dominant force. So that gives you a little contacts. Go ahead, Jonathan. There you go. Thank you for saying that the I think because what would he says in his in his infamous speeches? He says, look, the reason why dream teams don't work is it's relying solely on the ability of the individual and not the teamwork. And I think you know, you can get it getting the best people in the room doesn't make a dream team getting the right people in the room does. So


this is going to come down to the individual and their willingness to work with partner agencies more than anything. There is there is no doubt that that there is a tremendous amount of validity in that statement. And you know, and we had this almost this move in the business over the last couple years, maybe maybe a little bit more than it lost three or four years where entire new agencies were being formed. I think there's one cold is it red sky? All red bull nuts on red bullets, red sky with


something which is that which is a W p. P conglomeration of various people from different agencies to form a new company. And and and that seemed to kind of build a rage for a while, which has climbed saying. But I to be able to cherry pick. My dream team, but -til point Jonathan in a kind of dream teams. I mean, w- we look at one of the classic examples is in baseball, right to you. You know you've got money ball on the one side you've got thinner than you will gang.


He's on the other side and and just having a bunch of rock stars old stars doesn't necessarily work. I think you know, fundamentally, what makes me concerned about this is that you would like to believe in one agency that they have. Based in clause, talent across a variety of of breadth and depth. Across the entire communications continuum, but I think that that's unrealistic. I would have to believe though. That a


client should be able to find all of that talent within a frigging holding company. And the fact that they've got to go outside of that entire £8000 gorilla to find individuals or most unreasonable boutiques or or subject matter experts is extremely troubling. Now that said as one of those boutiques or or thought leaders or subject matter experts, I encourage that model completely because older narrowly, those people wouldn't


have a look in. It wouldn't have an opportunity to be antagonizing or provoking or disrupting around the table. And so that part of it is intriguing. The other part is, I mean. This business is so antiquated. And so broken. Compensation for example, it is so in need of a complete makeover. That anything's got to be better than than, let's be honest. I mean, Jonathan, I'm sure you can talk to there are only two


models, right? There is the one throw to choke. And then there's the peacock approach in terms of, but but what's happened with. Both of those is that both failed because the one throw to choke just doesn't work because you end up with a Jack of all trades a mosque of none. And they'll be cock approach doesn't work either because you end up with seventeen. You know, I mean, I remember being on the bean cost, the if not the loss time to being cost the goat. Remember, Bob, Lou talking about. A voice IO are amazing when you need a a voice


IO are in I t. L are in a big data. It becomes there just isn't enough. Talent inside the client organizational hours in the day to manage all of these. You know, all of these agencies, each one wants to slit the throat of the others in the room. Here's, here's my thought, is there a practical logic behind all this that we're just not seeing that's not immediately obvious? You know,


because it does p and g really care whether agencies work together better. Are they really feeling under served by the talent they're getting from the partner agency? Or is this more about trying to put the partner agency on notice that you're not invincible, that we were going to hold your feet to the fire? And if we're seeing ideas that are better. Coming from other agencies were garnered use them at your expense. I mean, I could this possibly be more of


a a strong arm, tactics them were were giving a credit for. Well, you know, that's a great point, Bob, because they think, you know, some of these companies feel that if there if they put the fire to the feet of their agencies, they're going to do better work because they're threatened or the will lose their business. Now, if you look at it back when we were doing all the Bud Light work, when I was a Didi be the. Oh gosh, what's what's the name of the company that bought out? What? What wiser a b m Bevan. There you


go, thank you grow and were in bed, bought them, and now they be tallied, running. You think I would know this since I worked with them, but anyway. So what if it was they took it. To the to the to the limit as far as every single project was going to be a creative shootout. Okay. So I made the decision to just back out period because we couldn't staff around that. I'm not going to go in and pitch for every single initiative that Budweiser in its subsequent brands have. And it was just it was it's


just bad. It was bad for agency business is what it was. And I think that to your point, I think what these guys are doing is it's it's a little bit of a scare tactic like, hey, performer get out and and it. It doesn't keep for consistency. It doesn't keep for legacy and it doesn't keep for good business for the agency's at all. So you know what, if if it does work out man, God bless them. But I gotta tell ya. It's going to be an uphill battle because of the temperament of people that are that work in advertising. It's going to be a


uphill battle. Joe a any fear of this becoming a trend that infects other brands. I mean, if p and g experiences, any kind of success or at least says that they have some success using this tactic is they're going to say whether it works or not, they're going to say that it was successful. At least one of these tests projects that they're doing, and it's going to. In fact, the rest of the industry is just I'm wondering, how much are you worried that this is going to be something


that every big brand new has the deep pockets and can afford to bring him multiple partners on every project? How much they're going to embrace this and use this going forward. Well, look, I mean, I think and I was reading one of the sauce articles mock Pritchard and the the C m. O aura at anything that's he's tied or think its chief brand officer of p and g and before that gemstone goal, they were really great at being


figureheads notches for p and g, even for C p. G but for the entire industry. And their role was almost to be a a provocateur. And and kind of using the whole adage of the rising tide floats will boats. And I think. To a degree, there is an element of of PR associated with this, this move, this challenge. Oh yes. Yeah, this yeah, we're song. And and to the point of


just making a couple of the larger players, a little bit unsettled and a little bit nervous mission accomplished because whenever there is the threat of even one individual coming in behind that individual is typically a network or typically a bunch of strategic partners. So I think that point. I mean, I think I think it's a fairly obvious point. Again, you know, my concern


in terms of this becoming the norm is just that it it speaks to a fundamental problem in the business that they can find the talent. That they can't find the tenant in household or or you know in the existing structure. But but I will say, I think you know, I think the p and g Kohl's, this 10th fixed and flow, or this part of the element is fixed and flow. And really what they're advocating is this idea that there should be some Staples,


some. Carved in stone agency partners or even functions, and you would think Klein service would be that. I'm ultimately from the relationship standpoint at the very highest level on that one agency still has to be the oldest straight out, or the conductor, or the integrate, or whatever you wanna call them. Even wrote about some of these ideas in my very first book in in in life off to the 30 second spot. I spoke about a new agency model that


they would be agencies called integrated. Is that what they will do? Nothing else, but just bring everyone together and coordinates and and be that conductor, so to speak, in a sense and so on. I would think CLYDE and service would be that, but when it comes to ideas and creativity. I think we all have always believed and we should that creativity must be democratized and cannot be monopolized


and cannot be hoarded by one person by one department by one agency or by even one holding company. And so I think if they can figure out the fixed and slow approach, it could very well become the norm. But I mean, I I don't know what this will do to the holding companies. Well, you know what? That's a good point and I can I'm I'm sure we're gonna have to move on here, but but I the one thing I listen, you're you're dead on with with the responsibility and and the buck has to stop somewhere, right?


I would say, you know, I've always said I sit on tangent being a little bit, but I I've always said that creative shouldn't be a department. It should be a discipline. And I think that the I mean, I've worked for all these big agencies, I will tell you right now that the account management, the account services or whatever you want to call it department has been neutered by the creative departments. So that's the problem, is that I think account people are historically notorious for for


just being. For lack of better work for being the bitch to the creative. So you know that it's good. It's going to come down to individuals and getting the right people involved. Yeah, all I bring up the nicest motor. All I know is I don't want to be the guy is embedded into the other team because it's a slight that's going to be like putting a target on your back. Every single it's going to be I guarantee you the frustration level is going to be 11 and you're gonna have you're gonna w- just watch the


turnover that happens in something like that. Yeah. Well. We're going to move on and we're going to talk next about innovating retail and how some people are saying that possibly the solution innovating retail is to end. Retail will get to that in just a minute. But first I want to talk about chocolate, not just any chocolate. I want to talk about our sponsor flava nostrils because here, let me just let me just tell you about of animals because the flannel any accidents in dark


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show and its incredible. It's going to say, Bob, I'm I'm on their site right now, and I love that. I love that line chocolate. Was your weakness, not your strength. That's pretty cool. Tell tell them to call me on work with these guys. Well, Beth is amazing. She came up with the line and has been doing some great work over there. So I think and I think because it's just you and me Johnson swim as well given some consulting, some free consulting to nine. I think they got they got to get themselves written into


Silicon Valley. Plotline, a little bit of a little bit too much chocolate, but a whole lot of productivity [laughter] hate joke. Let me do the creative. Okay [laughter]. Really? I wait a second thought credit. Creativity could come from anywhere. You know what the best creative does come from anywhere. You're absolutely right. Now moving on with our topic next topic, we often talk about how Amazon is innovating retail. I mean,


I can't count the number of times we've talked about Amazon on this show and how they've been innovating ways that they sell products to the public, but are they really on a mission to improve retail, or are they simply trying to provide better platforms for direct brand selling? It's an interesting premise, Joe retail is on the ropes and brands are at the mercy of this disrupted channel. They're looking for ways to go more direct to the


consumer you you talk about it. I've heard you talk about it. Can you envision a future without any retailers or middleman? Is that a possible scenario that we could end up with? Humming n- not not only as a possible it's it's probable on in the sense that retail, as we know it on you, it will disappear and will cease to be. And but something else, something else will come out of it. I've seen I've spent a considerable amount of


time of all the different vehicles in industries through my six years with evolution in particular on the whole C PG and the retail space. And it I think I saw a staff that that 18000 retail outlets will close down and 20 18. And it's just it's just boggling it, it's mind boggling. And part of the reason is there is no business model. That makes sense. Any more for retail


in terms of. The the actual even just from the real estate standpoint. From from an from an infantry standpoint, it you know when you look at a Barnes and noble, when you look at at a at a at one of the I mean even WalMart is, is experimenting with alternates delivery and alternate distribution, and these big massive warehouses. The only real estate that makes sense is is I warehousing logistics and distribution and


fulfillment center, which is red. What Amazon is in many respects, you know, Amazon would not say that they're innovating retail. They they would refer and and I would never refer to themselves as a as an e commerce on each Tyler robe bookseller. They refer to themselves as as if a full and company or a distribution company will be bad days. There has yet to that point, they would say it's a platform right. And I think I think you're absolutely right but but let me just ask you a question here.


If you don't mind. Don't you agree though, that I don't know if it's generational or what, but don't you agree that there's still an element of the touchy feely that that retail provides that people are gonna want. I don't I've made I've just I don't know. I just thrown that out there. Well, there's a there's the possibility that that's that's true, but in a from from that standpoint, there are a lot of brands out there who have retail operations that are


completely about connecting the brand itself. To the public, the right to test as the consummate. But I mean thinking about clothing. I mean, there's designer boutiques. There's dress shops. There is, you know, old navy, there's gap. These retailers are putting together brick and mortar situations that connect them directly to the consumer. Retail is the most in trouble is in this aggregation model where one retailer


aggregate s- all this different different product lines together under one roof and tries to sell it to the concealment and an- and that that. And cut tenant. You know, kind of process or platform even if you aren't maybe I'd wanna confused the terms factual. But that that scenario. Is the cornerstone of the mall? So without those aggregate as the entire mall disappears. So what would it comes down to what it comes down


to is retail can exist, but it needs to exist in a much more scale back fashion. Because the old model was that we'd have one big aggregator and they would be, as you said, Joe the anchor tenant at the end of the mall. And they would keep everybody else afloat because people would be drawn to the JC Penney's of the world. And then they'd end up at the whatever the you know, the. The dress shop or whatever. If you'll be lids lists. But I mean, you


know. That model is broken and it's this like for retail to survive. It needs to survive in a much more scaled back fashion where you have returns to urban centers. You know where these small boutique shops can continue to. Promote the brand identity and give that touchy-feely experience for those who want it. But I think that love fewer and fewer people want to have that experience now, fewer and fewer people are seeking of act. I mean, Jonathan off me about the touchy feeding part and


and a- I'm feeling a little uncomfortable, quite frankly. I can't help, but it's that exit of years. Joe [laughter] were wondering who would be the first person to mention what's been going on to W p. P so I guess [laughter]. You know be [laughter] but. But the answer is I mean the answer is not really because just look at look at look at these companies like all birds that


no way had burst on an untouched. You know that have burst onto the scene selling direct to customer with these ink. And then of course Zappos. With these incredible return policies and ready, just creating this environment where you don't have to touch and try on and a, you know, and and experienced apparel apparel was always thought of as the the you know, the loss bastion. The one thing that that would would you know that you would always need the bricks and


mortar model. And I think that we see now that you don't. So for me, do I think retail will go away completely what I said it early and alerted to the fact that I think it's going to look very different. I I've always cautioned marketers and I've said to them just remember one thing, no matter what happens. Until we the until we create that, that that pull that allows you to stay awake for 24 hours one till we we create


some kind of of scifi type of product. There are still 24 hours in the day. You know, we still have two eyes. We still have one knows we still have two is we still have one stomach. We still have a very, very limited and challenged attention span. And the older we all the less we have, the less the ability we have to multi task. And certainly younger consumers have the ability to be able to do more. But we have to, you know. If food, for


example, I do not foresee a virtual model or a old digital model or a mobile model anytime soon where we will actually consume our food any other way than physically, but to be able to fall back on that as out almost safety. Blanket of security blanket is a fool's errand too, because three d printing, for example, way, way food can be printed. All just the fact you look at a model, likely greets how that has kind of


been able to disrupt as well as certain business model was certain distribution. And so Joe, Joe, Louis located, let me ask you this, do you think. Do you think I because I look at this is hand in glove. Okay. We were in my past we were agency of record for Wal-Mart riot, and it was amazing to me that the director of marketing could not get the data from the website activity because the web


guys for Wal-Mart would hold it hostage. Okay? So is it is the question is, do you think this is. This is this is a problem of not understanding the evolution of business or is it a problem of people not knowing that there's an inherent difference between web activity and in store experience because it's a it's a different different way to look at it to say, well, they're just not on top of the internet because


frankly, if I go into. The gap I go in the gap today, but then I end up buying something from the gap at Amazon. Does the store get credit for that sale? No, they don't even know that I was in there. You don't? I mean. Yeah, I mean connecting the online world and the off line world is, is is a problem for a lot of retailers, but I don't think it's as. I don't think that people were unaware of the problem is they once were I mean you bring up the WalMart example. That's what like


fifteen years ago at this point. And you know, it's just like WalMart is well ahead of the game in terms of integrating their data platforms in trying to create a more unified consumer at all day. But that's not no, that's five years ago. Five. Okay, I'm I'm doing the math. I'm thinking you were with wal mart a lot longer go, but that's beside the point. I mean, I think that in this time we've got a situation where consumers. We're brands were


starting to figure out what they need is just that they have to do a complete tribe digital transformation, which is light steering the tank Titanic. It's not that they're aware of the problem. I think they're are very painfully aware of it, and I think that the vendors out there that are providing the solutions are doing an excellent job of communicating the need and the solutions that are necessary. It's just that changing the entire operational structure and risking everything that you have on a new


structure that you're trying to put in place, that that's that's a scary proposition for most of these companies. In the trial itself, it instructs his bitter, but I would say if you guys know of a of a case study, I I do not, but how come I'm not seeing. Somebody running a beacon technology, which is proximity based technology, right running that in marrying that up with the Amazon experience so that they know that I came in, the store I shopped, I


didn't buy, got home, got online and bought I don't see that type of foot printing anywhere if anybody's doing it then. So hopefully what are the listeners will correct me on that. And usually your listeners correct me. I just about everything [laughter]. But I think and I listen, I love it. I love the feedback. I just think if you marry up a beacon technology with the unfold experience with the online experience, I just don't see a lot of that happening. Well, I would just you know, I'll give you a not a


case study per se, but an example with WalMart, they've been experimenting with an I don't know if the if the correct it said kiosk or I think it's referred to all my says a WalMart tower, and they would prototyping this in in Oklahoma City. And essentially it's a big coup, but will miss does look like the bold type of cube innocence. But but what you do is you basically do your full shop online and and


then basically drive up to this. It's almost kind of the equivalent of of drive-through drive up to this kiosk. Scan or entail customer number and big door opens a window opens and all of your all of your your shopping basically gets delivered to you in these bins, which she then put into your into your trunk. And so I think. It's important for us to kind of recognize a retail


itself. Of course exists and wool exist, but but did the way it looks is going to is going to be very, very different, and what you just described binders I let you just described. We have to somebody has to identify what the role of of of the store is going to be in a consumers purchasing decision. Yeah, I mean, I I I think that that's at the heart of the problem. Joe mean Jonathan. I mean it's I think that we need to re


envision where retail fits into the mix and how important it is. Because the brands are looking for ways that they can connect to the consumer because they need a data. It's not for any other reason, except that they know they don't know who their customers are. The retailer has controlled who their customer is, and until retail figures out a way to deliver back to the brands, the data that they need to effectively market to their consumers and to effectively create


relationships with their consumers. They're never going to be able to stop the stem, the flow of blood because the brands are they're always going to be competing against their own retail partner deathless steps forward. You're absolutely right, and I think I think I don't want to speak for for Bob in Joel, but I think what you guys are both saying is that I brilliant. So obviously with them, I think that I would go say that [laughter].


You are brilliant, but that I I think what we I think what both of you was saying was that I was brilliant [laughter]. What I want to know. This exit, you're smarter than everyone. I wanted always this. This is my show and nobody calls me brilliant number really upset about that. [laughter] bullying and not wait until they're shameless plugs and we both heap effusive praise on you. But I love it. I think I think it's I think it's important to bring this


back down to him from the sublime you know too. Is is that. You know, if you take a customer Centric lens to this topic and everything should always have that customer Centric led some in it. It takes me back to my agency days when with all boom and bust in, you know, and and all of the distraction and the hype. If you just followed the consumer and you and you just saw every single day, more people getting on line


and getting more comfortable online Falstaff foster speeds, the whole move from dial up to broadband. I- an- an- and comfort at the time in terms of giving out their credit card and transacting online. If you just follow the consumer, you can never ever be led astray. And I think you know, one of the most fundamental truths is we do love to shop. We do love to spend money that we don't have. We do talk to buy things. We don't need an end. There is two Jonathan's point. I


think it's it's it's not that it isn't about the touchy feely, but it is about the experiential component as opposed to a pure transactional on consumption driven component. Yeah, there you go. And so I think the thing is, if if if we if if that is true, then we do have to stay the sacred cow that it has to take place in a bricks and mortar environment. That doesn't mean the bricks and mortar environment can't be all digital and old virtual. And it doesn't mean that a contact place in environments other


than bricks and mortar. And if you take that approach, I think we will see all we could see, you know, retail being reborn. Where are we going to move on to the last two topics real quickly. First stop brand safety issues and online advertising has led to some pretty drastic mandates from advertisers. People were blocking entire sites are embarking entire networks, but some are now questioning whether brands may have gone too far with these efforts, Jonathan, in an effort to


keep their brand safe from questionable content. Our advertisers shutting off important pipelines of opportunity by blocking these sites that are potentially holding fruitful profitable customers. Yes. Okay. Sounds good. Built you know, I don't know if you guys saw this. I posted them a little article that I wrote on linked in, and it was about the Facebook debacle right, right. And


it's it's confusing to me, and and I'm really interested in your guys take on this because. Okay, so I I mapped it out that sucker Burg what wooded he he he sold his 30% shares for 1.13 billion or whatever the number was right in with malice. Yeah. So why was this a surprise to people that that's how that's the business model? That's how this works. You're this privacy thing is going over the top


people you guys. I remember I think it was in. 2011 when the G mill launch. Oh God, I have no idea a lot earlier than 2011 of tell you that much [laughter]. Well, I just I I was quoted about it. Some reporter had called me. They said, hey, Google is launching g mail and we want your take on it. And I said, well, they have said they're gonna read your email for better adds serving and better ad targeting. And they said, do you think that will


prohibit people from signing up? And I was quoted as saying, I a G male will be the biggest e mail provider on earth. A because people don't care until it's too late, so I think brands and people it's the same problem. What's going to see what happens is you know, everything is about privacy, but you guys, if I just posted a video on line two days ago, I think I tweeted it follow Jonathan Sackett by the way. But this


guy that that Google uses your microphone on your computer. So if you have a conversation about something even that get served in ads. So if you get a chance to take a look at that video that I posted on Google, they're doing that too. So are the missing out on an opportunity? Yes. It the missing out because they're not sniffing enough data out there. Yes. That that's how the business model of Facebook works. Yeah. I don't think this is. I don't think that that's all that is important too for


us to realize is brands, what the opportunities are in for concern as consumers understand white brands or taking from us in terms of our data and understanding us. But I mean, I think what what the heart of this problem is, is that brands are in their effort to be safer, have shut off entire websites that M plainly that the independent living off your nose to spite your face, right? Exactly. I mean, you know,


I can understand not wanting to be next to an ice is video, but by taking yourself off of YouTube completely which a lot of brands did in the early days with a drastic sweep of we're not going to do you too right now, what they're essentially doing is saying that the site is the problem when it's not the site. That's the problem. It's the brand itself in the policing mechanisms that are in place to make sure that the ads are running were content is acceptable. It's it's just lazy


marketing. Yes, that's that's that's a well. It also can get you short term P r. for a long term, none solution. Okay. Anybody who walks away from those properties had better come back pretty soon because the road is going a certain way, you got to follow it and made you you can't you can't just walk away from an avenue or something. Now again, there's content and context lake in in some of the speeches at I give I show


contextual media by where it was for lunch levels. And the it was the banner ad was married up to a school shooting. Right headline, yes. So, yeah, that you've seen this before, though. I again, you can't you cannot cut off your nose to spite your face and those platforms are there for a reason it's boat responsible use of that platform. That's what it's about. Look, I would I would. I would probably draw a parallel right now when we think about


brand safety mapping it on 1 hand to the the programatic and the automation of of media planning buying and ultimately serving. And then on the other hand, the G d. P are in a conversation and and reality. And the fact is, in both cases, you know. When a brand is, is a tenant. Renting media, as opposed to a landlord


owning and magnetizing assets. Then you're always going to be subject and hostage to the landlord who might be a slum Lord. And in many cases, that is kind of on 1 hand the Facebooks of the world. But on the other hand, the reality of of this vicious cycle that has been created where we are trying to by any means by hook or by crook. Get the scale reach and the numbers that we need, and we're paying a bit of a


price. But I think my point is on 1 hand, let's go all the way back to bowl, burn back, who said safe advertising is the riskiest advertising of all. How ironic now that we're talking about ran safety. We should never know, right? Brand should never play it safe and brand should never be safe. Because by being siphoned being vanilla and shying away from anything that that, that deviates from the middle of the road by by just sticking to that kind of one size


fits all, we're gonna get. We're going to get forgotten and swallowed and done that. So that's a really good point in this day and age of scream. Sometimes you win with a whisper and I end, you can't get to the newly yourself down said right now is ridiculous. You're absolutely right. I couldn't agree with you more. It's a beautiful quote. By the way. I just made that up. How did you radio testing? I'm sorry. I write. I'm sorry, I wish we could


talk more about that topic because I obviously have a lot more to say on that. I think that the brands are making huge mistakes. Just by not have been strong enough to make a stand in terms in what the brand stands for into police, that appropriately, and depending intirely on technology to to run their brand. So that's that's a big problem. But we got to move on to the last topic before we wrap up. The show can reversed upfront actually become a


thing. Initiative, held its second down. You will reverse upfront inviting media companies to come here, pitches about their brand clients needs. Obviously, there's a lot of pure value for them in doing something like this, but. Joe is there a nugget of valuable wisdom in making the up-front upheld, the customer in this case, the advertisers themselves? Is there something here that other media companies should really pay attention to resist purely a pure move on initiatives part?


I mean, I have to tell you, no, nobody loves to bash the agencies. And the advertising model was much as me actually, I'm sorry as much as Jonathan [laughter]. But but in this case, I love the idea. I mean, I I love the idea of. Of actually, I mean these companies, these media companies are. Are desperate. To be treated as partners and equals, or at least


earned the right. To be anything, but a vendetta and have to respond to an r f p. And and be kind of forced down. This in this continuum, like cattle. And so. If this isn't just a p r, I mean, of course, you know it could be. But in the case of of whether it's initiative or any other company inviting in some of these media partners to actually demonstrate


there. Their ability and the capability and and understand the clients business. I mean this, this actually fits together. So interestingly, with this whole first topic of inter agency, cooperation, because. Because when we talk about interaction interagency cooperation, why just talk about agencies and consultant seas in and around holding companies? Why not bring the the media companies in into the into the into play? And I can tell you I


just completed. A project full for a client where. Focused on content strategy and content marketing. And and I went out and and interviewed a whole bunch of. Key players, both executives within this brand also representatives of all the agencies, but also representatives from some of the media companies and an which will give at some of the largest must establish media


companies in the world. Some of the specialist subject medics fit some of the new kids on the block, if you will. And also some of the the lodge digital shops that that that all that that have done a tremendous amount of investment. And you can probably work out who they all. The one thing that I heard the one thing that was a common thread from all of these companies. Was the media companies almost begging pleading and not just from a sale


standpoint, but actually saying just treat us like. You know, just just t- test like humans, you know, bring us into this process. And allow us the opportunity to demonstrate. What we can do for you and so in this in. I didn't even think reverse upfront is it's reverse engineering, if anything, but but the concept of the up-front the up front is so broken. Everything about the up-front is broken buying media in advance for you know all the euro when we don't


even know what the hell's going to happen tomorrow the next day, the next week I mean major news breaking this weekend that just tunes everything on its head. So anything that puts the customer first, anything that that allows. Media companies will any potential partners to truly understand the business, as opposed to spots and Dodson and and and filling you know data points on a spreadsheet. How can that be a bad thing? Well, it just goes back to our earlier


conversation of the of agencies and models, and broken models and such. And what, what the historic notion is to be keepers of the knowledge so nobody can steal your. Your work, your client, your thunder, whatever. Right. So I I love the idea of this because. If it. Transparency should be king, but it isn't. And frankly, it's always the media agencies will say, no, no, no, we've got this. Don't worry. We got it


covered. Verses the clients getting involved directly with. The property, right? So Fox Sports or whomever. And so I think that that transparency is gonna rule the day and it should rule the day because it's the right way to go. In my opinion, what I like about this idea more than anything is that first of all, I agree with you. Joe, it shouldn't be called a reverse up front because that's not what it is. What it is is making all the brat, all the media companies come to them and hear what the


brands initiatives are going to be, what their intentions are. To find out what is necessary for them in order to make sure that their message gets out. And to essentially put all the media companies on notice, we're looking for custom made solutions for brands were not there just by media in bulk. And I was right. I don't know, right, right. I I think that's a brilliant strategy because it does make it all about the client and it makes it all


about the. The specific situations rather than the programs that are being offered by these. By these media companies and these these assets offered by these media companies that are out of touch with what the brand actually requires in order to meet its objective. So. I like this. I really do like it, but. With that we've got to wrap up the show it's time for the ad fell five but before we get to that segment of the show, I do want to take this quick opportunity to


thank my guests again and allow them the each to a shameless plugged starting with Joe Jaffe you can find him at start ups for brands Dhaka. Actually, that's his old website. Can you still can we still find your it started for brands? Dotcom mirrors. Now you can and. Absolutely. Okay startups for brands that calm. And he's got a new gig that he's going to tell you all about right now. So you want to kind of pitch herself and tell us about what you're doing. Yeah, well, I mean, you know in a nutshell, for six years


I- I- co founded and ran evolution, looking at at creating connections or bridge between startups in brands, but ready trying to build the ecosystem full brands and start ups, collaborating together. And and the way we always used to pitch it is what if Kodak acquired Instagram, what if blockbuster had invested a net flicks and I still believe it's one of the if not the biggest idea right now for large corporations which is figure out any which way they can how to work with some of these technology


companies. What what I did realize throughout this process was that our know we took a very velvet glove of very manual and curated approach, it was very much about holding hands and spoon feeding on, but the world is just moving so quickly. And and the turnover was was so volatile that you know anybody that comes and tells you how many stops Sunday database or lying or a fool because the reality is half of them probably going to turn over within a year anyway. And so I was introduced


to a wonderful woman who founded a company called innovation scouts. And and what innovation scout days I mean the easiest way to describe him is basically the technology version of evolutions. So they're assess platform that uses big data and machine learning to basically automate and fos- track the entire then discovery prices. So it's important because it's not just about start up. So it will even technology now. But rarely any company, any


company that can help a brand. So they can go into university, I p they can go into inventors and inventions. And it doesn't have to be about technology anymore. And suddenly I just saw this whole world open up wear now, practically over a million different choices or options are available to companies and the ability to have this automated streamlined and accelerated was just, you know so enticing. And so I joined them as a super


adviser and I'm helping them build a business. That sounds as sounds amazing, and I'm glad that the evolution model and everything you've done to build that up over the last six years is going to continue on in a in a more technology focused of arena. So that's fantastic. Arrival of evolution here. Very excited for you. Now, the next step we have Jonathan Sackett you can find him@all scope dotcom. That's where he is the interim president and chief creative officer legates are correct.


I think that's what I am. Although I I'm thinking of killing myself emperor [laughter] that always goes well with employees. So trellis, what's going on in your world, what would you like to Perot? Well, first of all, all scope historically was a media company, and now we're taking it to the next level of. Of doing creative and technology and things like that, they were ready successful in media, but if I was going to promote something, I would say, please share and follow this show. I think


Bob Dole, you should follow them as well. They're good friends of mine really smart guys, and I have mad respect for both of them. And I want to tell you we are about to a this is premature and I shouldn't be opening my mouth. But you know me, I always will. We are. We are partnering with. Probably owning a good percentage of and marketing two black guys with good credit Seoul, they've got their own pod cast their ranked as one of the. Most followed most listen to.


And what they do is they basically talk about fiscal responsibility for professional athletes. So we've got the shows on tune in is gonna launch grub have a hard relaunch. May 20 first. And the guests on the show are Jamal mass brim, Jonathan Sackett all really looking forward to that. The I'm looking forward to working with these guys. They're great, they're smart. They're funny. A lot of good things are going to come with us, and it fits right into the brand model of what mass burn enterprises is all about. Because


Jamal is so much about financial stability in educating people about that. So great grabs lands gray gray, move on that part. As for me for more information about me or the show visit, the being There you can find a complete show archive, you can find out how to consult with me. You can find out how to advertise on the program even so check it all out@the being cast dotcom and don't forget. We now have a transcription partner transcribed is offering transcription services for the being


cast. So you can go to any show that you're listening to. And find the transcription a link to it, so definitely check that out. And if you want great transcription services go to transcribe Yea, sure. Inscribed cast. They've got a special offers set up just for being cast listener, so definitely check it out. Well anyway, now it's time for the ad fell five or run down of the lowest moments in advertising marketing and public relations from the last week.


First up how fortuitous I put this in the brand in the ad fell five right on the weekend that the W p. P news broke brands or even more disillusioned with their agencies after agencies were required to reveal their pay disparity gaps between their C e. o.s and their median employees. Can you say 500 to 1? And as it's come out? Martin Terrell is leaving his company supposedly stepping down voluntarily. But we'll see whether or not


that turns out to be the case. Jonathan, you're the one who hates agencies [laughter]. Hey. I've got that. That would be self loathing but [laughter] I worked. I worked for Martin surreal. I knew Martin Sorrell actions. They knew I I know it's not like he's dead. Look. I mean, didn't everybody know this? I mean the advertising industry, the the entry level employee gets paid next to nothing. It's a tough


industry. It's a tough industry to catapult yourself into. I mean, I've I've had a pretty good career, so I'm not going to wait the hand that fed me. But. But on the other hand, there is no need for that degree of disparity because I know what the entry level people make. And it's it's it is criminal it is. You know, one of the interesting things that was once pointed out to me is that the C e. O of Disney makes only a fraction of what the C e. O of W p. P made. Hundred basis in


Disney endless much mom maybe a little bit bigger than W [laughter] just as far as branded enterprise. Absolutely. It's just it's there's a huge disparity. There's no need enlisted. I've been paid well in the industry, man. I mean, I got nothing to complain about, you know, but I think. I think there's no need to start people that lull because frankly, nowadays you can make more money at, you know, McDonalds than you do dis starting in an agency source. Think they are the most telling thing about this story was


that the agency that the clients were getting upset about this, when they saw these numbers, the clients are wondering, why is I can't have my favorite creative on this count because it's like it seems like all the money is going to the C e. O it doesn't make any sense. Despite Google supposedly abandoning the practice under some fire, it's funny that you mentioned this a little bit earlier, Jonathan. Oh, seems to think scanning AOL in Yahoo email messages for our ad. Targeting


is just fine and dandy. Joe user permissions be damned, right? I mean, it's just like if you can do it, do it. Come on vowed this I need the sunny affects twelve people. So [laughter] it's going to be okay, user user permissions be damned. Found a name for the show. It's it's uses permission be dams, you know. So we're told by allowing Yahoo email messages how many can may be nothing to see here.


Now Finns book absolutely would never allow another Cambridge analytical fiasco on their site right. We'll see NBC discovered otherwise, right before the hearings that went on this past week, and when they confronted Facebook about cube, you running the same type of effort that Cambridge analytical had been running Facebook promptly, shut down, Jonathan without comment [laughter]. Yeah, I didn't have a comment on that weird, right. You know what? I tell you something having dealt with


Facebook since its inception. I will tell you face book will do anything for money and that's what businesses about. So I'm not crucifying them for that. Anything for money and regardless of the consequence, and you know what that this will get a blip on the radar of of the media and that's it and nobody will care, which is sad. But also, you know, in their defense, they did shut it down without comment, but they did do the sad face and then the angry face. And


that's fine. Okay, we, but we forget. Now DJ it will promote just about anything on his social media feeds except that certain products like alcohol. Joe require stringent controls over who can see a recommendation. Needless to say, there are suddenly no alcohol ads on the man's feeds any longer. It seems like this is something you would've as a brand manager doing a deal with a celebrity on


Instagram. You would pay attention to the fact that most of his audience happens to be teenagers in your product requires a 21 or older significant significant audience. Yeah, so what's so what's left that he can whole co promoter now just I guess, overheads and will be parkas and into everything. DJ Kelly. No DJ calendar will be just fine. It's the marketers I fear and last but not least in the


aftermath of a humble, Bob Broncos, tragedy, a hell of a few don't remember a junior hockey team that was killed in a bus crash crash a Halifax area. Tim Horton's manager decided to honor the team by making green and yellow doughnuts, except the efforts did not include any charitable component, meaning all the money went into the manager's pocket. Jonathan, Tim Horton said, they apologized for the misunderstanding.


Yeah, we're just trying to sell a product here, the nothing to see behind the curtain. That was a dude that was that was insulting on so many different levels. I can't even tell you because it's one thing to say we're doing this to help build a new gym. Were glad to know something, but arid honor of it. It's going to donate to a charity or something, but talk about, I mean, who thought this weight? That's the whole thing. There was one lone


manager Halifax areas slower, and he made the decision to do this. The brand is obviously in damage control may force the manager. They'd like offer up a donation out of his own pocket, etc. They tried to do what they could, but this is the problem with franchisees taking matters into their own hand aim at at night. Jamal Jamal. He, he and I even talked about this wanted he said he's one of the world's biggest franchise owners, and he's like,


holy God made that decision. Yeah, it's a look at it. It's so sad because even if even if. The intentions were 100% honorable and pure. And this was their I mean, I and I look. For those of you that that know me now that I started my career working. For a fast food company in South Africa and and I worked with these franchisees, help them with them marketing.


And I know the day on where they're coming from and and what the intentions are, and they're not the Machiavellian you know? In a short sighted and and are liable obsessed fiends that that unfortunately call themselves market is they genuinely are attempting ended and at attempting to do their best, or at least again, let's assume that they took the high road. It just demonstrates our how convoluted and and


twisted the world is today, but also the reality that that you can do something that let's be honest was clueless INA and you can be in the middle of nowhere in the sky or I'd hold on I don't want to stay Halifax air as the middle of nowhere. I'm saying you could be anywhere and do something that that ready was local, even hyper local. And end up becoming this massive local regional even global appearance on the ad fell five. I'm such


kind of sad because it said whether he took it, it's pathetic if he took the low road. If he took the high road, it's kinda sad, you know? And all the well, I mean, it makes me think of a had tipped to so called because I was listening to being costs in a while ago, talking about all these corporate social responsibility. You know, this was with McDonalds and the kind of hash tag droopy boobs. And in Seoul said something that I think it was sold, that I thought was quite brilliant. He said


instead of creating ads about woman, instead of, you know, spending over a million dollars to turn the McDonalds arches upside down. Why not just donate 1 1 and a half million dollars to Planned Parenthood. Or or a cause that really would benefit. Woman substantially in tangibly. And that's, you know, I think at the end of the day with a you are a single franchisee I- in Halifax, all you are the C m. O of p and g, just


use your brain, use your common sense, use your heart, and do the right thing for the right reasons. I mean, surely only good can come from that. What a very minimum not appearing on the ads. All five. Well, we can always hope for smarter marketers, but that's not the purpose of the Advil [laughter]. Thank God. Thank God for crappie marketers, right through the three of us would not be onto not wearing through. Have something to add to this list or just want to discuss it. Common online used the hash tag add fell


five that's pound add fell on the number five. Well, that does it for this week's show if you'd like to subscribe to this pod cast visitor website@the being cast dotcom and click on the subscribe link. If you're nineteen listener, we've also provided a direct link to the eye tunes music store, or just search for the being cast in the pod cows directory of I tunes and whichever broadcast directory you use when you subscribe. Please leave us a review. Got comment. However question we'd love to hear from you. Just send your emails to being cast. A G m.


L dotcom opening theme was performed by Joseph Cambell closing theme bike see jacks. Thanks for listening. I'm Bob nor. We'll be back again in two weeks because I'm going to be at the LA times of festival of books doing some live recordings of the I make a living pod cast hope you'll see. Hope to see some of you out there, and I hope that you'll join us on this show in about two weeks. Take care.






Cool beans.