BeanCast Transcripts

BeanCast 497 Transcript

BeanCast 497: The Berlin Menstrual Model

Date: 28-May-2018

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Bandwidth with provided by recursive squirrel, interactive transcription services provided by transcribing dotcom visit them on the web@transcribed me dotcom sluggish being cast for up to twenty-five percent off. That's transcribe Episode 497 the Berlin menstrual model.


For Monday may 22018 it's time for this week's edition of the bee cows, a weekly discussion about the news in issues basic marketers today after whose Bob north. Thanks for joining


US. Gdp ours Ella Leo and with it comes a wave of legal challenges against data collectors over technicality called forced consent. What exactly is it and how worried shook the marketing will be over tonight? We'll discuss. Also were fallout from EDP are Facebooks claim that uses a largely opting into ad targeting. Censures move into media by.


Plus this week's odd fell five. That's the lineup. Lets me tonight. Thanks for joining us for this week's been cast. I'm Bob north and with me on the panel for this evening, we start with the principle consultant that veto moment marketing, miss Emily bender I Emily. Hi, Bob happy Memorial Day weekend to you. Happy memorial for more broad. We try to say that again memorials


as well. Next up we have the founder of c spot run productions and no also creative marketing director and branded content producer for aluminized productions. Ms Wendy Cooper, I Wendy. Hey, thanks for having me. My pleasure. No, also joining us. We have senior consultant at playing business strategy expert MS Holly nodoze. So great to finally get you on the program, Holly. I know. Thank you, longtime listener first time caller situation. Thank you.


That's great. And finally, we welcome back managing partner at cook wax mister Steve waxes here by Steve yoga. Joe. Well, we've got a lot to cover it's been a huge week in the news which is unusual with the lead up to Memorial Day. We usually have nothing to talk about on this on a usually told to a show. But there's Judy P r. this time. Now general data privacy protection, regulation is the ease attempt to protect its citizens and keep


corporate malfeasance to a minimum. But as with all things that are supposed to be good for us, people have to push the legal boundaries. And that's exactly what's happening right now, which brings up the issue of forced consent now, forced consent is basically the little window that comes up when you go to a website that says, if you want to continue using this website, you've got to agree to our terms. And if you don't agree to our terms while you can just not use our website. It seems


like a reasonable way to handle it, but Holly is forced consent, really forced me to do anything and it is a legal challenge that. Going to result in some really bad things for a lot of marketers out there. What's your take on force concerned in the situation going on right now in the u. I will I think that the really simple answer is it's not really forcing any of the consumers and by consumers. I mean, people who use Facebook or Google, or even the the hotel chain that you happen to


have awards points with its not really forcing any of us to do other anything other than clicking that button. It says, yeah, I want to keep using your platform. But I think the more complex answer is. G. D p. R can't be bundled in that way, and that's where a lot of litigation is now starting to serve as people are now filing lawsuits around the idea that you can't just bundle consent. You can't just say by saying yes to EU Facebook, you can now use my data in a non transparent way. As you go day to


day. And I think that that's what's going to be really interesting is the amount of effort and time it's going to be spent, especially in the e u around making those types of our UN bundling consent is where we're going to see a lot of contention and a lot of effort go in there. I'd love to be able to say to you that I think Facebook users, for example, are now going to think of what happened with Cambridge, analytic analytical, and get super excited about deciding whether or not they continue to use Facebook under the current conditions of


what we would call course consent. But I think if I'm being a little. Pragmatic and maybe even a little sort of negative about that. My assessment of people in general. I don't think that more than one or two percent of Facebook users are really going to care. I think they've already started made this pay to play agreement with Facebook. We have a story that we're going to cover later that gets right into that right into your point. The fact that Facebook users are just saying, yes,


to using the site, it's having no effect. But. There's the bigger issue of if this actually goes through the court system and the courts fine. That from this forced consent, the so-called force consent of having to approve the use of our data policies before you can use our site. If they say that that's not acceptable, what happens to the entire business? I mean, we're not talking about face for everybody because there's there's no way to


actually get people to use the site. In any kind of meaningful way, right? I mean there's there's no other alternative you're talking about a user experience now that has additional steps and interfaces where you got a consent. Today, you clicked on this type of mo- you search this piece of information or today you traded this information with a friend and we'd like to use it to we have your consent and. Most people who look at user experience on line or on platforms are apps are releasing God, what a headache. This is going to


turn users away from us. It's going to create a poor experience. And I think that there's got to be a better way. There's gotta be some s- some blending in that soft consent area and soft consent being as you as you go through the experience of using a platform. Certain types of unbundled consent will appear to you, so can we use this information for political reasons? Can we share this with with retailers and you're as users that the option right now that we're seeing? I think the other


option is. Is more tricky. It's the option. Really saying, can we rely on our can we trust these corporations like a like a Google or an Amazon to real? You know, do legitimately only share information that pertains to our interests? And that's legitimate interest type of our consent where we say, you don't need to sign away because we're not going to break your trust, were not going to sell your data to anything outside of say you, you buy a lot of laundry detergent. So we're going to let


the manufacturers at Proctor and gamble note that you buy a lotta detergent so they could market to you when you're on our site within our domain, and that's how we're going to protect your data. And that's a little bit softer. It's not as obvious. It's not as transparent to users, but it's definitely another way to go. Emily [laughter] is that something interesting about whether what could happen to the business, if if this is what is required going forward? And I think what we should


probably ask ourselves, it is not just, you know, in the weeds of what does it mean for Email marketing or Facebook ads G d. P r.. But what does it mean kind of on a grander scale where clearly we've been flying this plane for a while. It is broken like there's an engine out and we're trying to fix it, mid air and dropping screwdrivers everywhere. It's going to be bumpy like the solution is not it's not there yet, but this might be kind of. The tipping point where and he talked about this last week fairly was mentioning. We're going to


end up with more of a subscription based model and get your content that way and or and the such as on blockchain opting out of seeing ads being paid, being paid to see ads, you know, either either. Yeah, but. Okay, so we end up with a situation where people are paying to use a website paying for content as opposed to using having their data mined for ads, but it still comes down to to get that kind of situation. You've got a force, a consent decision.


You've got to say, you've got to pay us money or you're gonna have to have us mine your data, which is another form of forced consented. Says, comes down to saying that you have to do something. Right. And it's just like it seems like it's a reasonable way to handle this situation. And yet, right away, we have lawsuit trolls coming out of the question. In this is Christian for Holy Family. Aren't peop- is anybody been


bundling can said in a reasonable way to save five choices that when you sign in or start up a subscription so that it isn't piece by piece of the content. Because in a way that we're sort of raising a bogeyman here when we say forced consent can't be solved. It seems to me you can do a better job than being done. Now. I could be told here the ways that we could use it just like you laid out the midday go by with political. You know, marketing or whatever it, we'd


have to think through what the topics are, but at least that would be better. And I would take a platform, offered a more nuanced. And sent the list coach, forced one would actually attract would attract consumers yet, Steve, you know what? There is an app called clue and you probably don't use it because it's a monster all tracking app [laughter]. The company is based in Berlin and the


founder into gathering data about female health and using it for academic and clinical purposes to basically help everybody. But they had what I saw was maybe one of the best, but it wasn't a forest concession was the opposite. Everything was completely optional. Say said, here's our new privacy policy. You can continue to use your account and they're absolutely tracking my health data. I'm fine with that. Or you can keep using the app, delete your account and just store the data locally on your


found, and you'll still have access to the features. Not all of them. And it was. It was just so. Unobstructed above the upper about his su- so obvious that something like that should be an interim step, at least if not a total solution. Well, I think you have to look at your different user groups. I mean, you can really start to look at the ethnic graphics of users and say, there are certain types of people on I'm guessing Emily, you're one of them that actually cares about how your data's being used in. So you will


scrutinize those sort of opt in options. That list of five that's deeds. Talking about. But you know, I think the other thing that makes me probably a little less optimistic about people is knowing the number of people. I know personally who looked at what was coming from face book or from we chat or snapped Chad and said, yeah, whatever. I love the service. I don't care if he is my data and that's. That's why I think most marketers are wondering what's going to happen next. I think this whole thing has brought us to kind of brought everything to a head. You're just kind of. Holding your breath


to see how much of this actually is accepted by the users, and how much is not. I think that I'm I'm interested to see what the acceptance rates are on a lot of these social sites are loadings information based sites like Google to see how many of them actually end up with very little change, or if they do end up moving the needle quite a bit on losing users. Right, if you look at Facebook, the unique users on mobile were up seven percent year over year in April, right when the scandal was heading. Yeah,


I was at dinner last night with a bunch of people about in submersible north of San Francisco. Is those people who were definitely not in our trade in they got to needed wasn't particularly because I was there. They got into a discussion of all annoyed they were with retargeting and they were really pissed off about it. And so it would seem like that there are specific instances where the users aware of what's going on I


was did is there is a dead is being used. That they do have checked the wrong. That's why she gonna bundle of my my my ongoing complain about that particular complaint. The comes up from the general public as well. I mean, you always hear about people talking about retargeting and saying what a terrible experience it is, but it's because people were doing really bad retargeting when you have a perfect retort getting experience with the relevant piece of content. But it's like, oh yeah,


I forgot about that. I would love to get that item. It's so incredibly useful. And the fact that the percentages of response or through the roof in terms of retargeting show us the people actually like retard getting they just don't like it when it's bad when it's irrelevant to them. But my point Bob was that you can separate out one media. A tactic draws on a particular kind of data. The consumers aware that some don't like I'm not in snot tomorrow argue about retargeting particularly boon to saying it's


possible Don bundle some of the stuff for consumer. Yes. Go ahead, sorry. Oh boy, three ladies. Unlike when you're always the only woman in obviously, let's go, Wendy. I think we haven't heard from you go. Okay, thanks. So I I kind of take a different look at this. I think you have to look at where the core of the problem of where it's come from. And I've I've been in direct response or direct to consumer marketing for 22 years.


And I know Bob has probably a similar background, and it's always bad now. We've always been under a lot of compliance standards. We've always had to disclose many things. We've always had to make sure that. Any time we collected an Email address and address a phone number, whatever it might be that it was opt in when someone made a telephone call to a television commercial and they want to order a snug. That is an opt in. Okay, because they made that call, you need


that inbound call. So I think that it just for me, it's incredible to just listen to all of this because. For so long, we have been so conscious about protecting the consumer data because we know how much trouble as marketers we would get in if we were just disseminating this private information that we were collecting. And for many years were the only people who are really collecting his private information until the digital age came around. And everybody said, oh, wow. Look at this.


We're just going to be able to, you know, live in everybody's living rooms with them. So the core of the problem really for me is that it's the way it was the wild, wild, west, and buggy. We've been talking about it for years on the being cast. It's the wild west in the digital space. Yeah, don't don't don't even get me started. I mean, it's just like I absolutely absurd. I. I agree with you wholeheartedly. And I think the G d. P r. at its heart is a good thing for the industry because it holds us to


account holds to standards. It's good for the consumer, and its ultimately going to be better for marketers, and we're going to get to that in just a minute with the second topic. But what my my concern is with forced consent is too restrictive in what does the end game become? If something like this, this is held up in court. But you know, I think that you especially I mean, Emily's example, the menstrual cycle up. I mean it it you know the way that they handled it was


elegant, and it allows the user to continue to use the service without having to be forced to give up the personal data. But in that case, the seeming that that ABC costs money, you have to pay for it up front. So the they're making their money based on an app cell which is completely legitimate in it's completely fine. But a company like Facebook or Google have built a model based on advertising so that we get free service.


And you know, how does the how did they exist for court upholds this force consent role in says, you can't just say you can't use the service if we can't use your data. Because what happened on, they have so many users. Yeah, paid to 99 about to $2 and ninety 9 cents a month to not have to hassle within ad this stuff and just become a a paper played based platform. You know, I mean, we've seen we've seen over


the top fell over and over and over again. Oh, I'm sorry. But but but it's not a question of charging for it. That's just something that Facebook could afford to build into its platform that would release book were face for what what we're really talking about when we're talking about forced consent being bad is by saying, you got to use our service. For as much as you want without ever being targeted without ever creating any kind of value for us. And you know,


essentially what you're doing is you're you're ruining a business model. Yeah, okay. So Facebook makes a lotta money big deal, but what about that smaller company that struggling trying to get out there? They're going to be decimated by this because they can actually have any kind of idea. That takes your data and use it in any kind of meaningful way because he was. Yeah. Your dad is meaningless unless


you're data is mean as though if you ha- if you're that small shop, let's just say your dad is meaningless until I must you have millions and millions and millions of names. I anyway, he not nobody cares about your your thousand are 500000 names are data that you have. It's not big enough. Nobody cares. With also, Bob, again, we're talking about a possibly on bundling it to use the Berlin menstrual model. Simply


I was simply saying, is that model a bad? If you use that and it was included for free at the front end, when you sign into Facebook or Google, or even some very small one that would begin to solve the problem in, it's not like everybody's going to opt out of everything is available for advertising. It's been proven that most people won't soccer Bergen whether the articles that you hosted talks about how supposedly should trust mothers, how many people up to him. On advertising it's just the people may want to


opt out of something else, you know? Fair enough. Like don't like don't give it to the Russians. I love. That was a choice. I can't remember if it was windy or Emily who said that moving to more of a subscription based model could be the way to create an elegant solution for this. But I think about a lot of the way that I consume entertainment a lotta people do now, which is we kind of jumped over to subscription based services of just streaming entertainment. And that for me, you can get a mix of things, whether you decide that you want to be targeted with marketing,


you can, you can get a cheaper subscription right by agreeing to. Look at, look at advertisement our or you can pay more and you can avoid the advertisements. I think that what is forced. I'm not going to share your data. I mean, you still have to agree or not agree to that. The whole data thing now right of the other personal information are whenever I think the point of it is, is that I think that there is definitely an appetite intolerance for subscription based experiences


and. And I think given that a lot of platforms like Facebook and all of their sub brands would benefit from actually considering. Maybe not as the only solution, but as a solution, because it would definitely open up the market to a wider range of people who would continue to use their platform. It wouldn't just be a you said yes to the bundle. And sand or you said no, and now you can no longer use our platform. I give us some options like, let's let's understand that their demonstrations in your market, near user groups in


your Mark. Do it look at it that way and and think about how easy it is to just offer some options. I think just like offering yourself consent option often options, you think about ways to create value for your users. I want to continue this conversation on G d. P r. into a different angle, it's one thing to discuss the ramifications in theory, prior to the roll out, it's quite another thing to see the actual impact and see how many businesses are being affected. So Wendy first. There's the


endless barrage of opt in emails. This has to be having some kind of disastrous effect on mill files, right? I mean, you've gotten all these Email saying, you've got a nail contact us in, opt in, and it doesn't matter whether you're, you're you citizen or not. I mean, all of us are being put into this bucket. So is this good or bad for Email marketing? Well, first of all, let me say this, I don't open those things. Are you guys opening all of those


things that you I just said to me the other day because he has a camel opening. I'm not even looking at them. I mean, I look at it as a great cleaning of the house Vickers. Every single one of those comes in. It's like yet only that yet on either. But there have been a few that I have opened up because I'm like, yes, I wanna stay engaged with this company. And I, you know, in a way that seems like it's a real, a positive experience for the Brandon for me because I get what I won, and the brand gets the clean, their mail file of


all these people who really don't care about them. Right. But that's you. That's me. That's Emily that. You know, Steve, Ben Ali, you know, marketers of the worst. The average consumer that's receiving these emails believe me, they are scrolling right past them. They're not opening them. And it's I think it's a it's a waste. I agree with you that it's kinda kinda going to clean up that hall Email thing where you're not getting so many


emails or or whatever. But I have to be honest with you, I really don't think people outside of our realm and advertising and marketing. Really. Even know what the heck is going on. I'm the leading them up here. I'm not gay. Each donated scrolling, but I'm just the leading of the the notices and that's probably the wrong thing to do Bob. You're probably right. She looked at him and say, oh, do I really want this? But I'll have the time, and I also have. I unsubscribe all the time, so I just relied on on subscription. So what does it do? I mean, Email


marketing is still a tremendously effective means of marketing, and Judy PR only impacts the European metro reason. I mean, it's not it's not something that is in force. No, it's not something that's enforceable in the U s. it's not something that's enforceable in Asia, but it's impacting all the mail marketing around the globe. I mean, I'm wondering what the the end result is in terms of effectiveness, do Email marketers have to now go back to


square 1 and start rebuilding that file swing to one name at a time. Because it's like so you know the answer to that, hey, I was just in Italy for two weeks. Just got back a few days ago. And nobody's talking about this over there. Believe me, nobody. So as Somali, I was just in Madrid and nobody was talking about it either. And I think that that's the fascinating part, which is. We look at this like, oh, wow. Europe is really Hanan us a bad deal here. They're changing


the way we worked as because they have a burning platform that they've got to deal with. But I didn't hear anybody bring it up, and I was actually they're working with clients in a similar space and either they got it under control, which is the most likely situation, which is a figured out how to get by for now, or they're going to look at it the way one of my one of my actual clients looks at it, which is here's a huge opportunity to look at the way your capturing in using data and actually increase the monetization of your data. Now, how much


I have a claim who's actually looking this as well. This kind of data now could have some level of scarcity. I could have to actually be much more cognizant of who I'm capturing data from and how in capturing it and how I use it. I could be actually. Monetize increasing the monetization, the data that I'm actually trading in, selling a b to be context. And I'm wondering if that's the case, I don't necessarily see it happening yet, but we're having these conversations in our strategy meetings about how valuable is the data were


capturing and how do we enter compliance sell that make it right at the F even the egg of even the people who are ignoring swiping not answering whenever that still valuable data, right? So you're gonna look at that and you're going to say in your meaning, you're going to look at that and say, okay, well, we have 60% of the people just never answered us. Right [laughter] you know you and you have to take that and you have to analyze it and say, okay, so. Who are they? Do they not care? Do they not care


about us? And are they a valuable consumer customer? You know how Email marketing works. Everybody here in this on this call knows how Email marketing works. You know, even if you have a tentative connection to accompany if you see something that's really kind of special and you really wanted, you're going to respond to that Email and its people respond to Email marketing messages all the time from companies that they don't have any kind of meaningful relationship with. But they see a


really cool deal come across 30 Email box and they and they respond to it. And now that's not going to happen. And I think that that's going to have a chilling effect on on advertising in. What do you think it's I'm sorry but well personally, I want to answer your questions I'm involved with the number. Climbs of one of them is very big into ecommerce Email marketing working we hope spot and two or three digital agencies. And nobody has talked about this shall bring it up to her on Tuesday, but


why do you think this is so can be so destructive mobile occurs because because these Email data files or are gonna be purged of everybody who didn't respond G d. P r. at some point in order to be in compliance, they need to have of data file that is clean and opt in. And they need proof that every person on that day to file is opt in or else the open themselves up to huge amounts of fines in terms of doing business in the e u and you know,


that's that's a big concern for a lot of companies and it could potentially disastrous through. It's a really good point. Well, however, they got the Email addresses in the first place, whether that's you went on their website and you signed up in that exit pop up. They will slowly build the west up again. And it will be the same people that they would have had. Anyway, those who are actually going to the site are are interested. I mean, maybe there will be a dearth for a while a couple of years to build it back up. And it'll be more valuable, right? It will be it will be really true. People who


really care about the brand new service, the product, whenever it might be. It's not going to just be, you know, because Email is there's butts old everyday. Right there bought sold every day. There's a there's I get a tiny mails everyday that, hey, how the heck I I don't know you. I don't care about you. And why are you emailing me? So you know, and I'm going to ignore all of that. So the value of that Email list over time is going to become, you know, I'll what's the word for it. She's going to be more valuable because it's going to be people who really


want to be there, who really care about what you have to say Sal, or give us a service. I like, I love what you're saying. Because I think of a real life example in my own life. I bought a vintage helmet from World War Two for my son because he likes to actually create environments where they. He says different battles. And he wanted the vintage helmet, he wanted it for Halloween costume. I buy it for him a month later. I'm getting emails from the NRA telling me. Absolutely, I'm


getting emails, they enter. I telling me how I can protect my gun rights, and I'm thinking by the way on the big fat hippy tree hugger and I would never touch a gun. My son is a historian. And I think about how invalid my my data was too the NRA I'm poor and already they think I'm now heart their target audience. But I'm not. And and they're wasting a lot of effort and time marketing to me and and selling my data to other people have now been marketing me. And I've had unsubscribe around, subscribe, and get super annoyed. And.


I think what you're saying is a real life example of there will be the dearth but we will build these Lissa over time. The list themselves be more valid, more accurate. And and actually more valuable in that sense of knowing that with these are bitterly are true, true subscribers to either your product or your service people are really interested in what you'd have to offer. And that makes it much more direct in the direct marketing sense. Another another big impact of of regulation that's coming up over G d. P r. is a destination of programatic advertising in the e u countries.


We've been critical programatic on this show. I mean, anybody who's listen to the show for any amount of time knows how critical we've been of it. But. Is no automation any better? I mean, Emily, what what's your take on that is, is the the reduction of programatic in the you a good thing, or is it potentially destructive to the advertising business out there? Well. So I've seen the European add demand volumes plummet


anywhere from I think it was 25 to 40% but that's just this initial shock and fear. I think it will fade yet programatic. I don't know, it's kind of a crazy topic. Does anyone else have anything to weigh in on this? Here's here's here's something I and I'm only take away. I really noticed it because when I was up and I was only in Italy and and the evening sometimes earn in the morning, you know, I would want to watch something English. And so I watch a lotta YouTube and and when I'm in the U


s. and I'm watching you to which I do a lot. I've always getting hit with this still at he wants to sell you this great online business, you know, and all of his his doubt line of people that are doing this and interrupting me all of the time. And I get so frustrated by that. I hate them. But when I was in Italy, it was really awesome because every commercial that came up on YouTube, regardless of what I was watching wise a branded high quality, beautiful commercial. And that was


awesome through me, so I'm not sure if that has anything to do with how they work programme attic over there. That this is more about the response that there was one article that was quoting that a program attic advertising has been brought to practically nil in the you in the run up the G d. P r. because programatic causes so many problems when it comes to consent to the users, use of it to the use of any kind of user data that it's just become


impossible to do. I mean, plus the claims are typically way over the top, and that was that was just stay in Washington D c. this past week about those kind of claims. And. Right, right. Went on. Holly, what's your take on the situation? I mean, the is programatic. Just kind of a red herring argument, it's kind of not all that important in the end because we need to be doing advertising better or his programatic. Still important to the advertising mix in something that


we've got to solve in order to stay in business in the u.. Why first have to admit that I think I have a vague notion of what programatic advertising is. But if I'm interpreting this right, I love programatic advertising. What am I here? I do. I love it. I love it that I can be on YouTube and looking up a project to do with my child who loves to craft, and I will get an ad from Michael's which is 20 second ad that tells me that they're having an


online sale for 50% off which thrills me to no end as I am expecting a lot of money on ship. My kids can throw away. But I do. I love programatic advertising. I think it's smart. I think it's. If that's what programatic advertising is, no, that's exactly what it is. I mean, I like meaningful advertising. I like advertising that speaks to me because it knows me based on my behaviors, which is where the conundrum comes in, which 80 PR. Right? Because I really do want to experience. It's closer to a


YouTube experience where I can be looking at something that's interesting to me. I can it policy either a passion or a hobby, or a professional line of inquiry for me. And it tells me something I would not have known if I hadn't been there and that's meaningful. And I think that if if anything that's the platforms like YouTube, I don't think that they are in jeopardy of hitting any kind of negative legal side of this, because I can't see how they are doing it at a den. But you know how they're infringing on G d. P r. I think that there is really no


conflict in their less. I'm not reading G d. P are correctly. Right, youtubes great for that feeds up things that you're actually interested, it's almost like the Amazon of content. It's always know. Do you like this based on what you did last time? And it's usually right? More but in here's a here's the thing. I mean, it may it may be a good, extremely. I'd wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute is I'm up in a may be good experience. It may be a bad experience. I think that we've had both extremes expressed here, but the result of


GDP are is it goes away. And for it for the good people goes away for the people were having bad experiences goes away. So for the bad experiences, it's how it's great for you for the people who are actually benefiting from these ads. It's just now they get more noise because the ads don't stop. Just the programatic buying stocks. So the target and goes away. And so the accurate more noise and less relevance in your ad experience.


That doesn't sound like a good thing at all. But there's also another more talking about a user experience. What about the experience of marketers or replacing the buys airy, the rampant add fraud? So if that goes away, that's a good thing. Laughter just get more creative and target properly. Right, right, right. Thank you. That's what I wanted to say. I will say that. That what else? He what I was hearing as I was hanging from a consumer point of view. I'm trying to other direction any and look at it from a technical point of view from a


strategic tactical point of view from the market or science. Those are a very different things. So what is the question is the question from which viewpoint? Because if it's from the consumer viewpoint in our like, I hate the Stewart wines where everybody says, hey, you want to get rid of your come to the seminar due this all my business. I'm sitting here in my beautiful Ferrari. You can't do that anymore. By the way, that was just you can't you can't like, go and do these stupid ads where you're sitting on a show ram on Ferrari, and haven't you picture taken and saying, hey,


and make a million dollars if he has joined my free web in R thing that I do, you can do that. But from a technical perspective of programatic. Buying media buying and planning. I've always hated programatic all because I just think it takes the intelligence of. Of. Media of buying and and place meant and all of that great stuff that I love out of the equation and throws it into a robot sent land says he here in her needs


lived there needs to be a blending of the two, though. I think what we were talking about digital advertising, it's it's no longer like you were buying a cable by where you were putting it on doing scatter on certain programming based on audience demographics. And you could do a handshake deal and factual waterin we're talking about a level of complexity that it becomes almost near impossible to do the kind of placement that you need to get the coverage that you is required. For the region frequency to


make an ad campaign work online. But at the same time you need human interaction. And I think that's the intent of GDP are. But the result of G d. P r. is we take all that out of the equation and we get more noise and less effective ads. And I don't think that that's the solution either. So I think this is going to be something that we struggle with as an industry for the next few months, at least if not the next couple of years. God absurd not well.


To what extent have media companies perker medic platforms? Investigated how they can. Simplify or solves the problem you talking about it, but it seems like it's a hugely invested industry that's gonna have to, oh, they, they've been driven all ramping up on GDP are in a response for a number of years. I mean, I mean, in terms of programatic until he had Well, I I know from the verb medic universe there, they've been actively worked in the problem. But it's like I said,


when I started this topic, it's one thing to talk about it. In theory, it's another thing to see the actual results of what's going down and try to work through the problems in the field. And I don't think that this problem is solved. It's solvable, but I don't think that it solved and it's something that we're going to struggle through for awhile. You know, an interesting side note on all this data to be comes by way of Mark Zuckerberg. He claimed that most users on his platform have been actively opting in for ads targeting in the wave of G d.


P r. compliance efforts. Emily, obviously forced consent plays a part of this. That's why they're getting the kind of results are getting otherwise they probably would not. But this is also reviewing the customers will put up with anything if they find something valuable enough, what's your take on suckers, sucker bergs announcement that often are going quite well for them. He's right. People will put up with anything if they find it valuable or if it's their drug of choice. So people are


literally addicted to social media. Do you look at the dopamine rush that hits your brain when you get a notification? That's why people won't give up Facebook. They're probably a little concerned about their privacy issues, but it's like looking for their next hit. It's a drug addict. They're not going to give it up. I mean, you'd have to do something Selig Regis Facebook is always asking forgiveness. Not permission. It's it's with what they've been doing for 10 years. Yeah, I mean, people don't like change you guys, you know, and


they love their face book and yell at something maybe pops up and says, hey, you know, you gotta you gotta click this thing if you want to keep using us. Yeah, it's click it seriously. It's it's really. Like I said, we're all talking about it, that besides acid maybe 10 other people and some people in the Email, I think anybody is really up in arms about this this as much as you'd like. Well, that's what that's what the heart of my question is about this


topic. It's it's I understand that force consent is in play. So people love Facebook. They find a valuable. They're willing to put up with ads and order and the targeting and use of their data to get those ads to you. They're willing to put it up up within mortar to continue with the service. But I'm wondering if you took force considered out of the equation, would people still want to have their data mind and used for an targeting? I'm wondering how much of this is really just a


matter of the force consented shoe, and how much of it is. People actually liked to have these relevant ads on Facebook show up, and they actually respond to them, which is they're born by the data. I think most people don't even realize it's happening. We go on their face, but page they're looking at their photos, they're looking at this, looking at their feed, whatever it is that they're doing. They don't even really care. You know? I just don't think people in general


care. I would say most people not only don't care, but they don't really want to put the time into understanding exactly what they're consenting to. I think the most brilliant fantastic invention of our age is the online consent form where you have to scroll down many, many pages to get to the bottom and quick because I know I do it. And if anybody on this call tells me that they read those three pages of legal jargon. I'm going about your feet because I scrawled at the bottom and I click, yes, cause I want to get to the next page. I want to go to the


neat thing. And so that brilliant brilliant inventions using a legal jargon to get us to the point rethink. I just wanted to do this. I want to hit big, get that hit a dopamine's I think. Now, I think that we when we think about it, we have to say, most people are not going to stop and think about it. They loved their Facebook. They love using any of the sub brands at Facebook owns like snapped chat because it's it's the way they operate in the world. It's sir Senate social connection. And even if we were to take a soft opt in option, when you get a


menu of five things stated to you quite simply, do you agreed to allow Facebook to use your data for these five things? Many people may stop and look, but most still want that quick hit of being able to go use Facebook, so they're going to click. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Yes. I moved to the next green and just close down an alley to buy drugs and you're like, oh, is it cut with baking soda? I don't really care. I just need this right now [laughter]. Just just to clarify for the sake of listeners out there. Facebook doesn't own snapshot. They


own Instagram, but the point is well taken. I just wanted to make sure that we're Claire. Bob. You're also making a point because you're getting to us. It may be a legal probe, not the consumer probe. Particularly in Europe, because I would think though there's a really agree about this growing down invention and how brilliant it is. I can't imagine were under these kind of kind of context about the age of consent. Wouldn't say, you've got to provide one paragraphs in this may


exist, but I don't think I haven't seen it. You got provide you two paragraphs that the most you explain what you're signing up in terms of service. You know what I mean? But sheikh. I should think that the issue is what, what are the Europeans. Court's gonna do which may turn out to be like a California. Regulations on automobiles, which basically run the automobile regulations. One of the things that I'm noticing from my opt in experiences in em


Ahmad enough of an expert on D p. R to know whether this is a requirement of the law, but I'm seeing a lot less of that legal jargon type experience. I'm seeing plane worded English phrases being telling me what exactly I'm giving up when I when I click on on an item. So I think that even though the ULA idea was so powerful because they just made us, you know, sign away or lie our lives because it was so much easier. Just go through this legal


document and not read it. I think that the the law is giving us a better experience on that front, and that's that's a positive, at least in part of the regulations. And I saw in there a requirement. I believed her simplicity. Yes, there is a couple of. Parts of this are bounded on. Simplicity and transparency. So I you will see. I I I as it as a person as a user would love to see more of that sought opt in with simplicity and transparency. But as somebody who


works with marketers. Wow, I'm willing to give and take there a little bit more because I understand that a lot of a lot of smaller companies like you were talking about earlier, Bob, that are having to now update their platform to, to provide this level of simplicity and transparency. It does cost them money to do it. So they're trying to find the easiest most direct way to do that. Having disrupt their current pattern service or delivery. We've been doing it for a very long time and direct to consumer marketing an hour on it. There's there's been examples


for ever about let let's say you're ordering a product and and you see it on television. He said on line or whatever and say, oh, you know, pay shipping and handling, and you and you get, you know, your first order your first 30 days for free. Well, what has to happen there is that you have to make sure that by by the check out where you say, check out, yes, this is what I'm paying. There is a full disclaimer that basically saying you are agreeing to a 30 day. Shipments


for the next six months for the next year, whatever, in order to have this offer that were giving you, I can't tell you how many years that has been in place that we've had to always make sure that this disclaimer with a check. Box is there so people understand that you're not just getting it for free. You really artists getting the first shipment free and the next are going to be charged to your credit card in shipped to you every 30 days, blah blah, blah. So you know, we're kinda used to this stuff. We have to be transparent. We've


always had to be transparent. We've always been under this scrutiny of the F t. C as much as people don't think that in direct response, we were. Super super transparent, and we've always know working with the F t. C in Washington D c. to to to create these, these kind of like laws and rules and best practices, right? So for me, I look at this G d. P r. thing it's like one no kidding. You long. Well, I


really, really only a few minutes left. I want to get to this last topic the black sheep of the news cycle this week it has nothing to do with GDP are although it does have some revelry ramifications for Accenture given the GDP are is going to affect them when this move. A century is moving into media buying now, so Steve, you know, this move was inevitable. We were watching the the management consultancy is move into the agency territory, and now of course, eccentric moving into media buying is a natural.


Next step for them, but is their timing, bad considering both the realities of GDP are in the fact that a majority of brands are moving to promote programatic operations in house. I mean. Yeah, I can't see them getting involved with this for any other reason other than they wanna do programatic advertising. What is this a smart move for them? Well, it depends on what they tried to find what they projected the business would be from programatic, which they are involved


in really. But companies new during it. Versus what they're being paid to analyze media. You know, which was a big part of their consulting practice. I mean, they originally were part of an accounting firm and then they split off and became, you know, more about processes, industrial processes. So that's why in a funny way, programatic search fits into their wheel house. And but it is crazy, I mean, this is what they're proposing to do, and a lot of people complained about it is all the competitors. For instance


[laughter] every every twice that you scared to death of what they're up there. You know, it's kind of like if you were suing the company and the judge suddenly said, well, you're not going to hear this case, but I'm also going to take the other guys side too. You even it was like, wait a minute. You're supposed to be the judge. Hello? Neutrally. Fairly. But I think the solution. On the other hand, what goes on in pitches of what goes on between clients. Agencies is everybody's


analyzing the success of the last guy, or the guy who's got the account and having lunch is that calls curses. It explained to him or her way they're marketed. Use a failure in police are my company. So what the auditor just do me to buy a south or already about. Data and about how your advertising is working companies from your competitors in this a biased for it coming for you, if you are the fewer the agency, a record. So with ex-


should just do is take their analytic practice in moving into their advertising, correct? This incident, programatic breakfast and say, yeah, we have the best it extended syndicate. Higher says a client will use that end. Will do the program headed for you. You know. So that that would be my to get Hubble suggestion to stop trying to play both. You know, judging and contestant at the same time. The other side of it, whether G d. P r. or the Utah. Programatic moving in house is simply a money


question since they're very good at analytics in their inside many big companies, they must be looking and seeing. We can make more money by doing this even if we get shut out of the athletic business in the future in terms of at least advertising. Well, they probably feel as though they can do a really great job at it. I mean, here's a here's a company that prides itself on a long history. What did they used to be called these to be caught something that Arthur Andersen years near Anderson? Exactly. So it, you know they're probably looking at


at where will we've got we've we've got this department or whatever they want to call it where you know they're advising and consulting and looking at all this data of the time for their clients and maybe they're realizing, hey. This in liquid, that and why aren't they doing this? Why are they doing now? Well, maybe you can go through the design, the ones that are actually. You know, executing the programatic advertising we could make that so much more effective and efficient. And that's


probably where it's good. That is exactly where it's coming from, but I think Steve's fame kind of caps at off nicely. They are playing judge and jury their businesses to assess the ads spend and make recommendations on where to actually take. Your money in place it, you know, it's just like, is their waste within the business and how can they best solved the problem? You know, this makes them it makes them less effective as a consultant in more about the money, which is problematic.


So I can see why it of questions about, you know, there are ethics, ethical. Remember when Dick Cheney a long time ago under one of those Republican presidents who actually was a reasonable person. Dick Cheney was in charge of hiring. Somebody to be something like 6 8 defense is something in any appointed himself. It's kind of like bad. You're


bringing up this weird though. The sort of gives me the heebee jeebees a little bit to think of management consultancy is going in debt to sort of media buying. Because despite everything you said is true about the analytics in the capability to really you know, target the right marketing channels. It. Kip management consultancy is especially Accenture and and alike have been classically known for over industrialized things that I just think they're going to suck the creativity in life out of it. I mean, that's


just kind of what their great out there, so great at. Packaging the process we've got this down to a science well, I hate to break it to you. Big management consultancy is part of what makes great marketers and advertisers grade is that they don't suck sort of the life out of it to the point where it can be industrialize they they have the nuances of humanity built into it and are good at understanding, not just the trending pattern of human behavior, but serves of motivators of human behavior and they're relatable. And so I'm I'm curious to see what happens with this


because. If they do what, what, what management, consultant, Caesar famous for it could it could be a little flat, even it could be successful, but it could also platin- summer. What we look at is sort of a symbol of hope robotic for further romantic is you'll be good at it that I just you know, I look at the other aspects of it, no. Okay. So we're going to industrialized that now. Well, it's a remember once that one remember one of the ramp up the show [laughter]


because it was brought into oversee Crispin porters handling I think up the Burger King account. That was a great meeting of cultures. Oh my gosh. There must have been incredible. Well, it's been a plan to offer that. They do. Let me let me let me start rapping up. It's time for the ad fell five but before we do that, I do want to take this quick opportunity to thank my guess again and allow them they each do a shameless plug starting with Emily bender you can find her a


beetle Tell us what's going on in your world, Emily, what would you like to promote? Thank you, Bob, I've been working on something new that will be useful to most of you listening to the being cast, especially anyone in account based marketing buyer personas as marketers. We spend so much time creating buyer personas that we don't get around to building the content that we want to. And some of us may even admit to not doing our due diligence and even creating them in the first place. So my co founder Sandra and I


thought, why isn't there a place marketers can go and just download, tried and true customer personas for marketers in their industry and share the great ones that they've belt. So we have a site where you can do that, and there's actually a special page just for being cast listeners@persona So go check it out and find out what you can get out of persona, bay as persona, bay dotcom flash being cast. Slash the best from fetch the best promotion that I've ever experienced. I love you.


[laughter]. Well, mixed up. We have Randy Cooper. You can find her@lumina dotcom mercy spot These are both places where she exists in does work. So tell us what's going on in your world, Wendy, what would you like to promote? Well, actually, you know, Bob, like I got the bug it too after seeing you in Los Angeles. To do some life speaking again, so I did that for many, many, many years. And now I am


thinking I'm working towards really getting out to the speaker circuit. Looming is a is a great place to work and as a creative marketing director and all of that, but it is a post production, a house in it's it's it's a little confining for me. I have to admit after 22 years of being an entrepreneur and having ceasefire run. But you know, I'm available for speaking gags many different topics such as. Consumerism and also the need to


move meant and things like that and cancer survive be cancer survivor. And also I'd love to give I never do this when I'm on the show and I'm going to do it this time. I'm going to give a shout out to my son, who is an awesome artist. And I would love everybody to just go on Instagram and check out by B y. E chance because he is a great great artists here in downtown LA and the Los Angeles area said check about. And that's really that's this. That's really it.


Randy, you are a great speaker, a lotta fun being on the panel with you, so definitely, definitely give her a call next up, we have Holly. No too. You can find her and explain dotcom nuts X p. L dotcom tell us, Holly, what's going on in your world? What would you like to promote? I'd love to just promote explain we are actually expanding her. We aren't our footprint globally. We currently have offices in Portland and Amsterdam, but we just opened up a joint venture with a company and doa. So we've


got you can find as pretty much anywhere in the world were a very fluid network of consultants, and we're not typical management consultants. In fact, our goal is to cocreate to create human centered design as well as visual thinking. I can say this, if you're interested in anything it's trending right now in our world, we're seeing a huge uptick right now in customer experience design and not just designing for customers, but taking that customer experience, discipline and methodology in how so we're seeing a huge trend of


taking. Big ideas like design thinking into the new culture of your business, and if you have any questions about design thinking customer experience methodology, you should definitely tap into us and explain dotcom just a lab. I actually expanded what's in our explained stores. If you're looking for things like quick analytics or cards, or kits that you can use to take strategy in house or analytics in house like barriers to change or barriers to activation. Check us out.


We've got a great online store where you can get all kinds of great tools. You can use right away on your own. You know, explain is still one of my favorite companies of all time. I'm really a big fan of them, and it's a psychology is a big part of what they do. So if you want to get in touch with her, definitely reach out to explain next up. We got Steve wax, you can find him at cook wax. You'll see the link on the site, but tell us what's going on in your world, Steve, what would you like to promote?


Well, let's see, I've got. SRI clients are murky Shoreham investor in marketing adviser to three start ups and among three nonprofit boards. A huge fan of the I b. research that you use for some of the stuff in the show having been online committee in the beginning. But my main thing is to say, if you live, I'm working on 3rd campaign or 4th campaign for the share for cinema county. Gotten of John mutts is a fabulous


law enforcement expert. So if you live in cinema county vote for John mutts for shirts on June shifts. Oh, that's fantastic. I don't know anything about him, but I'll take your recommendation if I ever move there within the next week or so and register all Bob. It's worth moving here for him. For more updates for more information about me or the show visit, the being Costa calm there, you can find a complete shark dive. You can find out how to consult with me, and you can even find out how to advertise


in the program. So check it out at the being cast, a calm, and don't forget transcribed cast as the place where you can get transcription done. They are the official transcriber of the being cast and you can get transcriptions of this show within a week over on the site, but being And now it's time for the Advil five or run down of the lowest moments in marketing advertising and public relations from last week. And first stop if you weren't completely convinced


Wendy that Amazon's Alexa personal assistant was really a brand base spine, your home get ready to change your mind. A woman had her private conversation both recorded and then sent to a random contact in her phone directory. I love this story, you know, because it's just like the Amazon engineers of explained it all, but it's still this private conversation was recorded, which means how many other private conversations are being accidentally recorded.


Okay, so you are you ready to be button? Oh, no, no, no. No. I. I think it's the most you know how I feel about Amazon actually on my blog si- c spot I just posted this long article that being an Amazon cellar and that Amazon, you guys had the original author take off of off of the internet because I was so honest


about life experience as an Amazon salad. Oh shit. I know, I know. I know this is this is this one just got me. It's a it's kind of like, okay, it's this benign assistant in your house, but we're also recorded on earth. I do not. And it's not for fear the missus because I live in a one bedroom apartment. Why do I need something like this to assist me on


everything? I can reach every wall with them. I can reach every wall in every light switch within a couple of steps. So I live in New York. It's very small place. Oh, next up. Remember how apple swore to us that the iphone six wasn't prone to bending and forced us to spend on em own money to fix the devices. Remember that Steve. Hello leaped, memos revealed this week that they knew all the law. But the throne was was prone to bending and prone to breaking, and they were actively


trying to fix the problem behind the scenes. Boy, this one was just a pure nightmare for them this week. I remember buying that by six in be very careful not to sit on it because of their problem. But beyond that, my son in law works at apple. So I'm not going to say she fair enough enough. They have a 6 and I'm trying to get it right now [laughter]. Now because we never ever learn. Snapshot is trying again with a revised


version of their location tracking because we need to track our friends is what they're telling us. Holly, never mind the ad tracking, which is the real goal. You know, this whole drive for location based via this app when everybody. I mean, why can't they just be upfront about it? But this is about advertising tracking, not about connecting you with your friends. I this having makes me want to take a pot out of my pot door, cover my head and tin foil, and hide from the rest of the


world. I just want to say, please be transparent. Just tell us that we want to we want to offer you contact. We want to offer you advertising based on where you are. We want to actually go into that minority report type a world where we can see you coming down the street and we let you know, by the way this place you shopped at before has assailed today. I mean, I actually in one of those people who likes targeted marketing that is valuable to me because it offers me some level of benefit. So tell me, don't don't be cage you about it. I will trust you more if you're more


transparent. Exactly, I didn't. I just do not understand this mentality more next up proving once again, that if you call something autopilot it better, darn well drive your car and not kill you. Tesla. Now has to refund the money spent on the feature over false advertising. Emily, you know, I'm looking at this and I'm just going. One possessed you to call a product autopilot. When you know that you gotta keep your hands on the wheel, or at


least hovering over the wheel at all times, it's not autopilot. It's bound to come back and bite you in the bud. Right, that's poor name, but I am absolutely reading protests LA, and I think when you move fast, you break things at at least they addressed it and they offered compensation even though it was only a max of $280, but they didn't have to do that. And. Yep, but the the model three delivery time lines actually got pushed up. So that's a plus and nothing else kinda falls by the wayside when you do that. Nonetheless,


it will you above. Have you seen the evidence from the woman that was bikes that was pushing? I saw I saw. I saw that does another thing that was on the list for ad fails, but it's already talked about are already covered it. It's not York and last, but not least. Apparently Facebooks new ad labeling policy forces all publications. I love this one forces all add all publications that promote news articles to label themselves as political


advertisements. If the article touches on politics, Holly, this one must get under your skin as well [laughter] thinking about this one. I just don't get it. That's the thing that grabs you like you're talking about news [laughter]. It's a news article. I know that we do have you know, polarized news agencies report on the spectrum, but. I really hate treating users as if they're stupid enough to not know the difference between an advertisement in a news article. I I think


that's a stretch. I want. All right. Sorry my I think I think people for years have not known the difference between an advertisement. Anna and article it was called the advert aureole years ago, but we're not taught what we're not talking about this. We're talking about through legitimate news or even illegitimate news, but still news content being labeled as political, advertising, bats a slippery slope that's pretty ugly. Well, have something to add to this list or just wanted to discuss it. Comment


on online use the hash tag add fell five that's pound add fell. And the number five. Well, that does it for this week's show if you'd like to subscribe to this pod cast visit our website@the being cast dotcom and click on the subscribe link. If you're Nigerians listener, we've also provided a direct link to the eye teens music store, or just search for the being cast in the pod ghost directory of vitamins and whichever pod cast director you use when you subscribe. Please leave us a review. Got a comment of a


question. We'd love to hear from you. Just syndrome emails to being cast a g mail dotcom opening theme was performed by Joe Cybele closing theme by sea jacks. Thanks for listening. I'm Bob nor p- we'll be back again next week. Hope you'll join us then.


Cool beans.