BeanCast Transcripts

BeanCast 500 Transcript

BeanCast 500: Look How Far We've Come

Date: 18-Jun-2018

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Bandwidth with provided by recursive squirrel, interactive transcription services provided by transcribing dotcom visit them on the web@transcribe me dotcom sluggish being cast for up to twenty-five percent off. That's transcribe me dotcom episode, 500 look how far we've come.


For Monday, June 18 2018 it's time for this week's addition of the being cast a weekly discussion about the news and issues facing marketers today. Palmer host Bob normal. Thanks for joining us.


500 episodes ago, we started a weekly conversation, unlike any other in marketing gathering together newsmakers Andrews analysts. You discussed the trends and issues facing our business. So much changed and all that time. Tonight will the skulls also taking notice of the evolution of masculinity? Whether can should have done more to address sexism, allowing fair use some T v. marketing plus


this week's add fell five. That's the up. Lets me to my title. Thanks for joining us for this week's been cast. I'm Bob north and with me on the panel for this evening, we start with the super advisor at the innovations scout author, speaker, mister Joseph Jaffe Joe. How are ya? Hey, I'm fine, but when are we gonna talk about the giant elephant in the


room? [laughter] will get £500 gorilla and ready to like, give me a second to introduce me. [laughter] voice you just heard of course is our next introduced t- also with us, we have the president of digital agency mirror author, speaker pod caster and all around great guy. Mr Mitchell. They match. Bobby, how are ya doing fantastic. Finally, realized the president and chief creative officer at New York agency, all


scope, and also a board member of mass burn enterprises mister Jonathan's Sackett. Jonathan Hello. The baddest man in advertising on the planet. Is that me or you [laughter]? I just don't like saying it. It's 500 shows Bob learn. That, of course, is the elephant that as the elephant in the room and bread. Now we we recorded that first show all the way back, 10 years ago in


North Carolina. There were three deaths at that time. We had Neil Feinstein Riyadh Al dad, but we Karen, Evan. And the topics were just amazing when one of the cool things I did when I was preparing for the show was to look back at what exactly we talked about during that first program. And you know what it it sounds a lot like the programs are today. It's almost like we've made no progress whatsoever in the ad industry because we're talking about practically the


same things. A social media was the big topic of conversation. How did make virtual spaces worked for you importance of conversation with customers? The failure of the existing agency models green marketing? Whether you male is still relevant. All these topics of been still floating around in the subject matter. And I'm I'm wondering, Joe we did an just make no progress in the industry, and my still just


going on and talking about the same things that I'm lazy or is the industry just stagnant and really hasn't figured itself out over 10 frigging years. Gifts to all know [laughter]. So first of all, I wanna I wanna know you should do aware of it now because I'd love to know when Neil Feinstein El gap button, Karen, and I can tell you right now where they are because I keep in touch with all of them. Are buried in your freezer. Thank New York, Neil is a professor at Saint John's. Karen


retired from Chevrolet. She was Chevrolet G m. where she was the head of global analytics for that company for a long long time. She's now an independent consultant. And of course, I'll God but is still running acquire web, which has morphed into a much broader data play. So he's living in Connecticut, moved from San Francisco to Connecticut recently. So there are thrown. I'll have coffee with him. I'm so. So I guess the way I would look at it is I guess social marketing


is now called social media, something you know? When you look at these topics and the only one that is is kind of slightly different, of course is virtual spaces which you could probably just cool virtual reality now V are as opposed to virtual worlds. But of course, the phrase that comes to mind is the more things change, the more they stay the same. And it's funny because when I look at them. I remember always talking to people about the Super Bowl as I would call it the


stupid bowl, and I would always say, I wonder my worst not may would be that this year. Or at least it would be next year. They finally figured out it's going to be the everybody market is take this incredible opportunity and they just nail it. They take advantage of an opportunity to be in front of a hundred and 20 plus. A million idols, households, whatever, and an absolutely bring it home and create another 19 84 and and year of course, not any does it hat dozens it happen,


but the bar gets a lower and lower and lower. And the funny thing is, people like us on the bean cost at people, like maybe the people that were on your very first episode. We still have jobs, we still have jobs as consultants. As freelancers as mercenaries as thought leaders as authors, because no matter what happens in a matter how many opportunities we have two to remind people about what's important or you know something as powerful as customers intimacy or customer service, customer experience,


customer engagement. We still continue to make the same damn mistakes over and over again. And in that particular case, you know at the obsession with acquisition. Is there a reason? Well, I don't know that it's so much that were lazy. I think it's the fact that there is just this constant I- in organizations and the fact is people keep their jobs and people don't stay in the same job for too long. Forget about symbolism. Took me about everybody. I'm totally about constant re oaks, constant, restructure, constant


budget, cuts and end. And what happens is that there is no momentum in in organizations, and that's why that's one of the reasons why companies continue to either make the same mistakes will not learn from their mistakes, or the fact that we keep talking about the same topics. You know, 70 years later. Yeah, can I jump in on this one? Yea eyes. I agree with JAL though. I think it's the wine talking on his end, an mine [laughter] drivers Ed Koch


Scott site. I would add to that. I would say instead of seeing. But the song remains the same. I think that these organizations have trouble building cumulative knowledge, because what happens is because of job jumping and I would also add be- probably because of forced job jumping I know back when I was a d be from the Martin agency. Honestly, in hindsight, I don't think I'm the calm cared that they got Jonathan Sackett. I think they cared that they got that guy from the Mark maidens. So you've got so many


people, particularly big agency systems of switching their faces up against the window to see what's going on across the street that they'll recruit those people because they're from that company. And then what kind of a legacy of cumulative knowledge leaving behind you blood alone. Forging ahead with. I think also the the sort of overall job of closing the gap between those who want than those who have doesn't change, which is the fundamental role of. Advertising and to a greater extent marketing, it's also a business of amnesia. And up until


recently, unless you're really building a listen nutrient working at it's like every time you did something else, your like, where's my audience? Yet the go pay for him and access it. And I think ultimately, what happens really when you look at the digital side of it, which is I think, the sort of sphere that a lot of us have circled on. You're not only since you started the show, but if you go away back us 500 episodes, it's that was really the impetus of how things are changing. Is that actually things do change. They just change gradually in the nation's all at once. And so all all of those things are


just you know, those sort of converging forces in an- and narratives are just very, very profound right now. You know, some people use the you actually had me it. I have to say that you had me an impetus [laughter] frequently this so I will do as I look it up on many use it to something new said something you said something is boy guys. Hello [laughter]. I am here you book Jaffe and me on the same show. This is on you bought by


your mother was getting involved with no something he said, Mitch was that used to be rather find an audience. He paid for the audience and then you got the audience and I'm not really sure. I understand what exactly you mean because social media has used to be about conversation, but now it's slowly become find an audience pay for an audience, get an audience, you know, influence our marketing socially. I'm at. If you look at the topic of Email


marketing that was released, the beginning. A branch truly building a direct relationship and communication with their consumers in over the arc of the 500 episodes. We've been able to really develop personalization tools and technologies to really further that conversation. Prior to that, most brands had amnesia or at a product they would they would marketed, they would connect, it would sell it would until they'd have another product. They weren't building an audience. So it was mounted sat at Nizhni that the by that audiences look continually do the repetitious cycle of advertising to find


that audience. If there's one thing I I would say that the industry has done exceptionally well out and also poorly out at the same time. It's the integration of data data into the entire stream. I mean, know everything is based on data decisions. Now, data decisions are forming the basis of all marketing planning. You know everything that's going on in the industry that's forward thinking is has a data route and its. You know, it's not like


that wasn't part of marketing is far back is the eighties when we're doing with the first beginnings of database marketing and digital efforts. When we were putting together the direct marketing Rome into a whole new way of doing C r. M but. You know, I I would say that the bigger you I I just want to sign the I know where you're coming from is a is a is a terrific guys because obviously knowing you knowing you as as


many of us, do you also come from the direct marketing world and you understand that will quite intimately. And a lot of the fundamentals that that come from direct marketing, hostile, best practices that on not employed today will deploy today by maybe those market is with amnesia as you were talking, I was thinking to myself, can you imagine if there was a market of listening to episode one? And you know, and maybe the head of Nizhni and on that


very day, they said social marketing. Customers customers, intimacy, marketing by a virtual spaces, you know, figuring out the agency model, green marketing an Email, and if they had just focused on nothing else, but those, those, at those ideas will those tracks and become best in close in those. Can you imagine how how four think you'll have progressed, or how competitive that organization would be to die had that's fi- yet we we talk about today. We talk about programatic and


native unblock China, and I owe tea and and all of these bright and shiny object. And some of them are quite profound and quite important. But imagined today, like very, very recently when we're talking about GDP are and, and, um. And now how many companies are running around like chickens with their heads, chopped off any matched in way that a being if they had just focused on nothing more than Email and customary intimacy from day 1. And that's the real tragedy, but also the opportunity, you know, in terms of being able to to


to recognize and and develop those fundamentals and may be pepper and some of the new in the innovative, which obviously you know people like me. A very close to my heart that to me is that there is the real interesting juxtaposition between past present and future. You know, one of the first of all I I went back and listened to that first episode of which is something I've avoided for my entire currently thought dusting. I haven't done. And you know what? It was great. I mean, I'm a among


I'm like, embarrassed at how much wrong doing. If I go back and watch me sprint in college and I thought, man, I was good. Oh, I'm sorry. Go ahead. You know, I I look, I look back at it and I'm like, what happened to me? [laughter] become so jaded Ritter was such a an interesting dynamic conversation. Right from the start. It was. It was really grasping of some some big concepts, and I feel really proud of it, which is just a little side road here is a jump into the next topic.


But you know, when I was when I was listening to the social media portion of the conversation, what struck me most about the way the conversation evolved? Is that. You think about where Facebook is today were Twitter is today where all the social platforms are in the marketing mix there. They're absolutely essential components of every marketing effort that goes on out there in an as every analysts has said for the past


3 4 years. You can't underestimate the importance of Facebook to the marketing effort back. Then we were discussing whether or not social media was actually a tool, whether it was actually something that you should use, and you know the evolution from that the beginning. It's just amazing to me how quickly it happened that that first show was in 2008. And in 2008 the it just seems like yesterday and now suddenly the entire landscape


of how we do marketing has shifted dramatically away from traditional T v. into much more digitally folk much more social focused and much more influence or focused than it could've imagined back them. Any anybody else struck by the the evolution of social media and how fast it evolved. I mean it it seems so ludicrous that it would change so dramatically in such a short period of time.


I started pod cast things shortly after I heard Joseph Jaffe cast and that may 2006 and I'm your past 620 chose not to upstage you hear tied this is your show. But I remembered that moment in time as I started six pixels a separation very much feeling like. Why bother Jos Jaffe is doing this with his show there was. Yes, shell holds and never hops. And at the time there was in there's a whole Butler guy, alas,


a whole bunch, a little handful. And if you just take pot casting and look at how right now and the news, it seems a pod casting is the emerging platform. It's almost I know that if you think about it, it's unbelievable how much pod casting has taken off over the last three or four years. It's only been doing it for over a decade and I know, and that goes to the things move very dr- gradually and then happened all at once. The one thing that I do lament


about the current state of social media, while the one thing there are many things. I lament the fact that it's a do -opoly. I don't like that. I don't like the fact that it's pay to play. I wait a minute is are you saying that the do -opoly is based on social media? I mean, because the do -opoly involves one social media giant one search giant and also the other search. Giant also owns YouTube in another plot forms and and things that do touch where most of the advertising and time spent


is. And I regardless of that, you can call it, you know, three or four. I thought what made it special back in the day was the fact that people like Joe Jaffe in yourself and myself had what was very much. A place that to do something different, whether it was with audio or or writing, or whatever it was. And it wasn't the type of content you can really get in mainstream media. And I thought it would hopefully become true to what the clue train manifesto was about. Ray markets are conversations and we'd have this through the open place and


everybody could happen. I didn't publish it for free and distributed to the world than have all these New York thousand flowers blossom. And you know, I think sadly, it hasn't turned into that, and I think even on the platforms now, they're so driven by advertising data into a certain degree manipulation and surveillance that it's a bit disappointing that it didn't sort of go down to pollyanna way that I had written in hoped about. Another other people like Jo Anne had written about and hoped about as well. The thing that strikes me most about


all the conversations that we had on that first episode is that there is a certain amount of forward thinking that was going on at that time, and none of it was listened to the industry. Just had evolved into a whole different direction than anybody would have wanted it to be. I mean, we wanted to social media to be the great flatten or the Gallup -tarian way for people to communicate with each other for brands to participate in conversations and listen to their customers and has


become another add platform that is invading customer privacy and. And is not giving us all the things that we had hoped to have, and then we pause given us. It's given us a hell of a lot more negativities too. Yeah, it has. It's an negatively impacted society when it could have been a great opportunity for a two new do amazing things in terms of the way that democracy is practice. And then you know, we talk about the agency model. I mean the agency's even back then we were


talking very specifically about the fact that agencies were not consultative like they needed to be. They were not in relationship with the sea level, and that was going to give them a troubled down the line and sure enough here we are with all those management consultancy is eating the launch of the agency world because they're not consultative. Kills you know at that th- there's a funny thing because you know there's only so little clue in in in those topics, you called


it social marketing. Of course it became known as social media. When I wrote joined the conversation, I specifically didn't include the phrase social media in the title in fact, a cold at conversational marketing. Now that phrase, never stopped joined the conversation, did, but conversational mock. A marketing didn't social marketing didn't. And instead we we we coined this fry social media. I was talk about it when I give presentations on a Saturday in a media is oil ride from as in snake oil


as in media, comes from meet. Neither Raina. Well done, social is us going and having in fact, you know, I believe, Jonathan, I might even have a drink on Tuesday together in in New York that raised social. That social says social is Boorda without without compensation, without humans without a drink, literally, we wither and die. And yet we take oil and water and we put them together with, and we know that on mix and and this fright social media gets turns on and suddenly it becomes a best practice. My point is this in


a I often cite a market. As I say, I've got good news and bad news. The bad news is, is you not ahead. Right, the good news is that you're not behind. The bottom line is you've still got the smog. These bunch of lemmings was call market a six year olds playing soccer if you've ever coached a six year old playing soccer. You know exactly what I'm talking about. And still today were out there and we really all for the most part, quite clueless in terms of how we


deploy in how we go to market and how we use these magnificent platforms, which is what Twitter should have been to basically trying to figure out how to promote tweets and and and spam, and interrupting, and monetized through advertising, which is not a best practice, and it never will be a best practice. And so I guess the point is even here we are so many years what 10 years later. The fact is there is still incredible opportunity for forward thinking progressive


risk inclined market. Is that either take the same topics and say, you know what? I'm going to do it right today on I was listening to that, that that that being cost with Bob and Jonathan emission in a and I'm going to do it right as opposed to wait two episodes a thousand and go back to the topics that guess what are still going to be the same topics that everyone's talking about. So it is this kind of ground hog day Sonora. But I still believed. Maybe it's because I'm a bit of a romantic at heart. That that there are


opportunities for the exceptions and exceptional people to do it, right. We'll Joe, wouldn't it be interesting if it the thousandth episode, the cat came back. Back already [laughter]. You mean you think I'm actually going to be here for thousands up the 3rd, I don't know about the cat. The cat artless just bring it back now. [laughter], yeah. Right there. I just announce it. Everybody invested in each cat. Well, I'm going to move on to the next topic is I think we've talked out our 500


yards, so thank you all for listening all this time and now back to the regular scheduled programing. Now futurist faith popcorn is bringing your message to can this year. And it's masculinity is evolving and marketers must respond. Now her insights include everything from the increase of gender fluted fluid it for your in the strife is again the increase of gender fluidity to the rise of more egalitarian attitudes between the genders and Mitch.


What are the implications of what you saying and are the products services and marketing surrounding them keeping pace with these these insights defers first, I guess the best place to start is do you agree with her? Well, nothing like a pod cast pile of four middle aged white guys to debate this one, Bob, of course. Wait a minute. I'm an I take exception with that because it's just like, this is about men. This is about the evolution of male, the male gender, and our ability to relate to the opposite sex. I


think a panel of man is perfectly suited to have this conversation. Then let's go down the rabbit hole Sally you. What's interesting about this article and his piece of conversation is that it's very reminiscent to me at least of 2016 when Jack Myers from media village released the book, the future of men and looked at a lot of these topics actually in depth. One is we have to be able to look at this and understand that times have changed. And I would say for a lot of people


including myself, thankfully, I grew up in a day and age where I- I spent many years writing for the alternative weekly press here in Montreal, and whether you are male female, gay, straight, white, black, Asian. It was just a sorta Hodge hodgepodge of people doing amazing work driven by the culture of the moment. And. So I sort of just always grew up in this idea that that there was never this issue, to be honest. It was quite striking to me the longer I stayed in in


corporations how prevalent as was an answer somewhat shocking to me. And again, I say that completely from a point of privilege because of of the perch that I was. Genetically lottery winning to to a to a ticket to take pardon. But it is an interesting topic, and I'm glad faith popcorn is tackling at because when you do look at the sort of lineage of advertising, it's very rarely Uni sacrifice in it. I mean, it really does go mail. Female weather was, you know C p. cheese that were driven by


female products and trying to allure men in. So they cheat, ya made made brands more masculine look at things like deodorant and and and beauty project products are self care products, theme of beer, commercials. Reid if if this is true and we moved down this point. What would any beer commercial look like in their all sex cells and parties and parties? Think about again, all the products for men and how they're marketed too. Your fears making a Detroit. I know I agree with you wholeheartedly, and


in fact, Whitney always says to me that everything that is worn by a woman today was first worn by a man meaning in its this like every fashioned style that's ever happened. High heels. For instance, men were high heels before women were high heels. The Victorian area, yeah. So I mean, it's just like I can totally see that this is the case. People look to the marketing opportunities, and then it becomes gender fluid as they look for other opportunities to sell their


product. Well, let's not. Let's not forget though. I was in the music industry in the early nineties. Okay. So men were wearing everything that women had worn at that point. I was down the hair metal days of the eighties or go to a poison concert [laughter]. But I think what's interesting here, what I found most interesting is not the discussion about. Whether or not there's a future for masculinity wasn't that what I find very affecting about face comments and


about what I hope will be an amazing panel. Is this idea of the 3rd. I'll products these, the sort of market of products and how we communicate brands that really and truly are Uni sex. And that brands are actually moving towards that sort of position. So whether you're a degree deodorant, maybe they wouldn't be a sort of female version and a male aversion. But there would just be one version. I found that whole concept really interesting. I found myself wondering like what brands are


truly unisex and actually position themselves as such. And there are many actually seem a brand like Starbucks as a really position towards male or female. They might with specific product launches. If you think about a computer company like apple, they don't. But then when you start really gritting down into it, it is very interesting even targeting. When we talk a basic personalization when we always say they don't even know what gender gap as if they don't know what they're marketing to me. Oh my God, yeah. I constantly getting emails from revolve


clothing saying, hey babe, how are ya? You know, I'm not a woman and why would you call me? But those emails are from me [laughter]. That is the amazing. I stop in and who and really thought about wo- would faith popopo was talking about, but what this panel is in but with the opportunity was. Kind of going back to what we were saying with the 500 episode and more things change. This is one part where the world, my really, really change in a fascinating entrusted way. Imagine being


an agency born today that really does help brands think about creating unisex. Platforms, creating 3rd, I'll products. And I think in that you can celebrate. All genders or whatever gender you choose to be even. And that to me would be a massive step forward. And I think, you know, it is high time that we have these conversations because clearly you have the dominance of mentors for forever refer. You have. Yeah, for for me though, when I'm listening


to this about unisex products, I feel like the whole push toward unisex is misguided. Not because there's men in those women, but because gender fluidity is not about unisex products, it's about men. And feeling comfortable with women's products in women, feeling comfortable with traditionally male products as well as the unisex spectrum of products. So. It's almost like this focus on unisex doesn't really look at the way the people


like to express themselves. Unisex is, is typically very devoid of style because it has to be essentially to bring everything to of analysis centre. Whereas people liked to the people liked to express themselves uniquely with sense with. With clothing with color with Bob, let me just tell you it's not just express themselves as it's be marketed too. No. Okay. So I mean, we get a


look, here's the deal admit the here's the guerrilla in the room. Nobody wants to talk about this, but it is a vanilla center right now. It is. I'm not saying we're not going to move to a direction where you know Tampax has products for everybody or something. It get anything can happen out there, but you guys got to admit right now the world is not ready for that type of drastic change. And it's an expensive proposition to experiment with. Yeah, I think we have to be careful and and like I I don't think it's an either or or


zero sum game. I do believe that. If there are products that are inherently driven to a specific type of person and that creates character individuality, and that's absolutely fine amount think there's an issue with that. I think there's there's been historically a lot of conversation and as its position, it's either position towards the domestication of women. And that's how it's marketed, where the feminization of a purely fashion. On the other side, the sort of, you know, male


hahaha leader, throw the party. I think that that's really the avenue she's talking about. I don't think then it's the extremism of Tampax for men or or shaving eat acts for for women type of thing. I think that there's the sort of subtle, middle part of how does the world adapt to this new cultural movement, this sort of equalization the fluidity will is it not? I understand that I just don't fit. I not


seeing it, but. But by saying Tampax and acts were still talking about middle of the road line of products. And I think if if we're going to really think about this lake, I could say, you know what? You shouldn't cut your grass anymore because you know that's maiming grass and that's not right. So everybody stopped cutting the grass. That's not going to happen today. And I just don't think we can. I think understanding where things are moving to initially, at least or at least at the onset of those initiatives, it's going to alienate more people than it's going to


invite in a panic. And that's what that's what I wanted to bring about here, isn't that what we're really talking about is the fact that there is a shield final. But the shift that she's talking about, his a shifted masculinity and that shifted. Masculinity has created a new type of culture persona. Look, it's father's days were recording. This. A lot of us are much more paternal than the generation before this, and for sure, more paternal than the generation before that, where they didn't even show up to the delivery room. They're playing golf untold that a


kid. And the world changes, and I think the questions at faith is bringing up the questions that. Jack Myers brought in the future of men is about. How do you shift your communications and the way you position a brand in a world where traditionally the way in which you spoke, that audience was very one way, and now you can't do it that way or a ferret? Or is she saying just a just this out there? This is devil's advocate. Is she saying? Is it the marketing of


masculinity or is it the neutering of masculinity? That's my question. No, I don't think it's you know, because I think that, you know this is this is a reality that is going on in in society today. Men especially younger men or questioning their roles in their place in society. There are no longer assuming that they're going to be the CEO there. They're no longer assuming that they're going to go out there and be the leader of their family. You know, they're, they're they're taking on different


responsibilities in different roles than they have in the past. And marketing needs to pay attention to that much to your point though, Jonathan should are we going to respond to this? And that brings up the idea of early in too much of a bubble right here. You know, if we talking from New York Chicago, Montreal in our perspective, skewed is that is because of the people that we hang out with. I mean, our our we understanding


whether this changes happening inside this societal bubble or with this changes happening everywhere you go to jail. I mean, when I looked at this topic and. And you know what, kudos to faith popcorn who remains relevant in a you know as a futurist and you could be skeptical on a bit cynical about it, which is, you know she has to come up with stuff because she's a future is. So what is the future is thinking of this time, but in a faith popcorn is going to be a canvas. You're talking about


something that's that clearly has interest. But. I I had trouble with this topic in in a sense because you know in the marketing and media world, you know it's not a new topic for us to talk about the shift from demographics to audience or from audio from demographics, too engagement and relationships. And an- an- and that's the topic that that we probably spoken about, you know, at nauseam. For us to talk about the evolution of masculinity, we'd have to talk


about the evolution of feminine vanity. And and the fact is we are already and and so in a west is a bit different. Joe, while we're talking about in it is because what we're talking about is that for the first time ever special younger men, they are entering into the workforce and finding rules where the division of labor is much more equal, and it's very, very new and fresh. We're seeing things like. Know, men suddenly Gavin and extreme uptake in things like yes, talks, maniacal face


lifts, and liposuction and how men are suddenly realizing whether weathered subconsciously. Not that they have to work on their looks to stay young because they have those things. We see men much more active, whether j, what about the metro sexual saw, but I'm not talking about them. I'm just saying diminish men are raising more children than they ever had before team were, but a complete shift in the in the male role. I mean, we can't you do honestly believe that this is a completely new topic in completely new idea and


20 days say that we're not saying it is. I don't think I don't think anybody wait a minute. Reading any guys. I don't think she is not. She's not saying she's not saying that this is a new cell happen. She's happening. She saying that this is definitely a trend in that marketers are behind the curve and responding to this trend. And she all these changes have happened and markers or not reacting to the new mail. And it well, I think that's debatable. I think that it has has happened in certain


segments of the population, and it's happening in other segments of the population. And I think this is the point I was trying to make, which is to what Babo sang always this just a bubble. And is this something that we're discussing? New goal can Chicago, and for some reason he feels Montreal should be in that. Okay, fine. I addressed all three Serb locale, revival speakers [laughter]. But you know, look, this is a futurist physician. And if you went and looked at at at


fights, you know her lost hundred predictions and and and posits, and every other one of these these future shops. They would all be in the same camp you have to. You have to try and get light. You have to look at it. You don't take all of your money from the other camp and put into this camp. But smart marketers are going to take the stuff Cirrus and say, how does this relate to my business? What learning can I take from this? How can I make a couple of shifts and may be bold onto what I was doing


so that I can have a couple more horses in the rice. That's it. Because the reality is when you look at the so-called fly of estates, e not Montreal Chicago or New York. I'm not sure that that this specific topic. Is is as big, a will be as big as perhaps or even discussing on the show. Maybe I'm wrong. I think I think I think it's a I think it's a change that has taken place. I think it's there. I think it's real. I think regardless of whether you're in a place where it's happening more or less.


The fact is, this is a part of culture that that men do have a feeling of this is a very different time. Men are working from home there acting as car. I mean, I think that is a reality. The salt mine south of Chicago, you know, does does does bad wise old bad light stopped using farting donkeys. Now, based on this recent, that sort of that sort of the contention of the conversation and that this is the


last thing I would say. Having worked with Budweiser for a number of years. The fighting donkeys are sticking. [laughter] well lemme lemme lemme just say one thing that she she put forward is that advertising bears a certain amount of responsibility to lead the culture forward. Now, this is about the only thing at of what she said that I truly find controversial because. Advertising, in my opinion, occasionally leads, but more often follows trends. They


don't lead in trends. And I'm I'm a little bit concerned about the positioning of advertising is the cultural leader and how it's our responsibility to guide society into a different role for the man in the masculine role in our society. I mean, it doesn't. I don't know whether or not the except that is being part of our mandate as advertising professionals or whether or not that's just a little bit of hyperbole on her


part in term. You know what? It's good for her to have the cahonies to go out there and say that. Now, having worked at Martin Ogilvy DeeDee be named the biggest agencies I've been there. I'm telling you, I've worked with these people. If you want them leading our culture were all in a world of hurt. Well, that's it exactly. You know, it's just like advertising has never been really great about promoting the best in society. You know, we've fancy ourselves as being really good about that. We talked about the


coke coke commercial. I love to give the world a coke and. How much that change the way the reviewed each other and Mike. All it is is a response is it's like it's it's like it's savant, mimicking of what they think they should be saying as opposed to actually leading culturally and a m- wondering, why do we even have the do even have it in our capabilities, said to be a cultural leader? Like she's saying, so I


mean, Mitch, any thoughts. I mean, I hope so. I mean, I think we have to be able to look at this and recognize that this isn't some than that. I don't think over backwards. I do think we're gonna have men taking on more home traditional homemaking roles, taking care of kids, cooking meals, taken the kids to school, being more present there. I think we're going to see more and more men working from home and taking part in that. I think as the movement moves forward four women as I think it should and that's great.


It's going to create a lot of contention and stress in for for some people. And thinking about that from a marketing communication standpoint is a healthy thing to do. And if we're looking for moments in time where we can say, well, when is it when these agencies will rise up and actually be creative? And Ben Ben provides new concepts and get hyper creative. This could be one of them. Well, moving on while the program at can be addressing the issue of sexism in the ad industry, some are already upset


that there aren't doing more with that subject. Just three officially programmed events or on the dock at this year, considering all the massive attention that's been given to the me to movement in the times out movement. It seems that this is an egregious offense on the part of the organizing committee. So Jonathan, should the ad festival tackle this more directly, or is there a legitimate reason behind the reticence as some pointed out in the news this week? Yeah, I'm really glad that I got


this one. This is the subject that could have used. The definitely of feminine perspective is not that I didn't try my line now. Nothing like a panel of food has to talk morale. Now, this now that line is totally applicable. So that being said, I am going to begin by saying this. If any one is a victim of those circumstances, they need to come forward and when they do, we should applaud them. I completely


agree with that. That is, that has that has nothing mood that has nothing to do with right or wrong. That is right now. What I'm gonna say is going to get more controversial. Everybody ready. I'm ready. Right. Deep breaths. Everyone. Here's what I'm saying. I think just because there is an assembly of a group of people. If this was a a group of auto mechanics, the.


North American group of auto mechanics association and they're going to get together and somebody says will wait a minute, why aren't they addressing you know that subject? Why aren't they doing that? Well, I don't know if the responsibility is necessarily incumbent upon can to do that. Okay. Now what I am saying is if you wanna play nice and play fair and help people, and if it is if if there are problems out there that are of epidemic proportions and we need to address


it, what you need to do is open it up. So that the big agencies, the big powerhouses the big brands have partaken in Cannes, which I've been there a handful of times. The open it up to them to host those things, encourage them to host those initiatives. But I don't think it's the responsibility of every group, assembling groups of people to address an issue. All the time right now, it can it's about creativity. Here


are already like I got a jump in on this one because this is you go wild, Bill. Okay. You wait, hold out of big enough. So you guys think that every time a group of individuals or corporations get together, they have to address that and a half despond. No, no, that's not what I'm not. So what I'm saying, it all. You agree with me. Knowing that when you have an industry that has been under fire because of these exact problems. At scale. And to dismiss it in a day and age where it is. So


problematic is problematic. Okay. Let's go back. Let me my addresses. Did I stood? I dismiss it. No, I set up front. But there's what better ways to do it. I don't think it's the response because I would see the auto associated in the auto cessation at fifteen plus incidences of this problem, and they didn't address at their annual meeting. I will have made. How many did they have? I don't I don't all had died here is here's


industry. I know it's plentiful and every day here's the here's the here's the the reality of this I mean which is, but which is better, which is better representation or conversation around the subject. And bringing a platform for me for me in the big greater through that it up themselves within that organised. So for me, they brought they brought in. Three panels, the deal with the subject matter. What I feel like they need to do more of his bring representation into the


process. Meaning it's disliked there needs to be more equality between men and women. In terms of the judging in terms of the panel's in terms of the discussions that go on. It's it's it's almost like we can taught the industry but were awful for them. To provide the platform and say. Here are the five biggest brands in America. Coca Cola, WalMart, whatever. And here are the five biggest agency systems you guys, we are encouraging you to take this. And run with it within our organizational construct.


That is not being dismissive, that's empowering. And that's saying it's not the responsibility of can were providing you the stage. You guys were empowering you to take this and run with it within our construct. They don't doubt what I said. But not all I'm saying that. You're asking me how to address it. I'm telling you that is my recommendation as the guy who's been at the biggest powerhouses. That's the way they should do. You guys, do you guys remember several years back? I don't know if it was a website or it was a Twitter account.


That basically was just kind of exposing all the shenanigans that went on of can. And in particular, I think there was a couple were were kind of photographs or or or or recorded having sex on the red carpets at the at the Palais or and and I mean, how debauched and how you know disgraceful and disgusting, some of the behavior walls, or at least how it was almost being whether it was being celebrated or the fact that was


happening. I'm so. A lot has changed clearly around or in the industry around the world in the years that have taken place. I would just say, you know, that kind of I- I lean a little bit towards Jonathan on this one because I don't think this of all the places in the world that are gonna stand up and address and take stock and introspect and take a moral high ground on what's going on in the industry. This is not the place. I would rather say, you know


what? Don't talk about this stuff. Six. It. And and and the change and the fixing of the problem and the coming up of solution is not going to happen at can it's going to happen in the four walls of every one of the corporations on the agency side on the media side and the association and association. So I'm just saying what a can is not the moral high ground here this in what what is I think we can't confuse conferences associations and organizations having their own policies runs zero tolerance of


harassment than things like that, which they all have in place now. And they've all learned from, you know, photocopier bomb at the at the old Christmas party to. That's not what we're talking about here. What we're talking about is one of the largest gatherings of our industry. And it's an industry that we know has been through a complete disruption and dismantling. Because of this specific cause and to somewhat dismissive, when you're doing a week long program that is involving all sorts of different pieces of content. Makes it look dismissive, and I


I get what you're saying that that it's a choice and they can see you guys figured out. You stand over here, you do that. But it becomes glaringly obvious when it is the largest gathering and there is a lot of content in the gathering, manage this piece all they're going to do this. Okay, so thin so in in Europe. And I understand that. But if we're saying, okay, here's here's the platform, which is a creative awards show. We all agree with that right now. I would say that that's maybe 1 3rd of what it is now.


Okay. Okay, fair. Fair enough. I mean it's a lot of content. You got three a week of people city in sessions. It's what it is. Okay. All right. Well, I would say it sessions of creativity, but the best tit for tat who cares. I would also say that if they're doing three things, should we say, no, you need to do five. What is where's the hallmark of this? Well, I think I think what needs to happen and getting back to my representation common. I think that is not about men saying, let's give


our women are compatriots a voice about their sexual. The sexual misconduct going on in their workplaces and and it's more about giving women a chance to create in craft a program that is more Representative of the industry at large. And I think that's what needs to happen at arrested in your power them, okay? You guys, then you empower them to do it within the stage at which can provides they said what I but but I don't think the


understanding, Jonathan, that they set the program. The program. Okay. Okay. Hope. You're talking to a guy who's been there a couple of times. I got it. But what I'm saying is, maybe I'm not making myself crystal clear and I'll tell you exactly what I'm saying. Here's what I'm saying. If candidates the stage that they are providing, then change to power. The big agencies in the big brands, give them the stage to do something about it, but I don't think I think


I understand that. And I'm saying the wave. Got it can make out. I used I used I use different words. I believe. That the stage in which can provides they should empower everybody else to control the content can can provide what they already do, and you can have the outbreak sessions and all that stuff. Like I said, I've been there, but if they brought in, if they said in which I recommend it at the onset of this discussion, Coca Cola and the


world's biggest brands, or at least to the biggest brands that are Representative fairly there, you bring them in and you say, here's what we would like to empower you to do you guys and Ogilvy and W p. P or whatever you guys here. We're giving you this option, and this were strongly recommending that you do it that way. It's not cans responsibility for the content for that. It's the brands and the biggest agencies, responsibility. That's how they should do it. That's what I say. You know, this is not the


topic that I thought it would be [laughter] thought. This was one of the repeal mousy about not really want to talk much about, but this has been fantastic. Oh, I feel like I've been the mill because I can't get a would [laughter]. I would. I think I think when Joe means to say by that [laughter] stopped man split in him, say something as well, which is an and and I'm doing my best to be as neutral as possible. And and I will say, you know, with with full


disclosure, I'm I haven't been to can I've never been to can during this? I've been edging other festivals, but I've never been to this one. I think that the mood in the tone has certainly changed a lot from what I hear and talking to a lot of people and what used to be this. The self can congratulate tree, you know, kind of uh, tributes to Al grandness and indices grand nests and self worth, and an over inflated egos. Everybody's taken on


a all of those egos of taken one hell of a beating and there are a lot of bruised. I'm kind of egos running around there, and I think that there are we you I wish Joey wish you were right. Well, I mean, this is all golf, congratulatory, and if if I could tell you every story, I've been there every time at little breaking their arms to Pat themselves on the bachelorette retching up. But you know, I think the thing is that probably and again, I'm just I'm offering a perspective that probably had to had to straddle a line in terms of not,


you know, this is an elephant in the room to be sure, but they probably had to kind of straddle that line not to to create too much heaviness, even though one might argue and uncertain Neath think Mitch would. And that's probably we all would that it needs to be discussed. And that's all. That's what I'm saying is they still have to find that balance between everybody saying, you know what? It's all going to be okay. The 30 second spot is still alive. Let's continue to of Christ as beautiful pieces of foam and enjoy ourselves. That's all.


Well, I want to move on to the last topic is were running at a time. So we're going to talk about this real quick. Fair use is a touchy area when it comes to television eclipse sharing in user mashups undoubtedly helped programs find new audience, but they also create things like, oh, piracy. And the shift views away from ad supported channels, which is no Bueno when you're trying to actually get some money for your programming, sir. Joe, how're television content owners dealing with walking misaligned today and one of the best practices as you see them


right now. I mean, I was I was reading the a couple of the source articles in the irony was I clicked on one link. And it took me to an ad week premium website and said, you can earn a permission to view this article, which is kind of exactly what the whole phase debate is about. I I took I took a customer Centric view, which is an I end in a very I used myself in a an a personal example. I'm a everybody knows that knows me. I'm a


huge football fan meaning soccer fan, and I went about it, go and just watch the goals that I missed them. You know in in today Lewis said there was some fantastic goals. Brazil scored a great goal on the way to go. I'm not really sure that they still is a place to go. So I'm gonna go to Twitter. I'm going to go to Instagram. I'm in a topic, you know, look for a couple of a council or topic a few hash tags. And and and when I find a clip. And I try and watch that type, maybe I I mean, I'm in a different


country and I get this kind of sad face telling me that I'm not allowed to watch the content or the content owner has has you know I declined or or not given permission for that to be shade. The net result is, is is a poor custom experience will pull, pull use experience. And so I think if we took that perspective, a lot of the debate around Faye use would kind of. Full to the wayside, or at least we'd have a different way of looking at it. But for the


most part, you know, ultimately you've got a bunch of people scraping the bottom of the barrel trying to figure out how to get every lost. Scrapple monetize every loss, scrap when it comes to these small nuggets of content that that have been able to that that become viral, that become shareable. That that gets is spread throughout the web. I I'm you look at how a lot of the late night shows and set a not live a using these small clips and nuggets. And and the real


question and and stole at an open debate is. Who should benefit from that small clip? That small piece of viral video from SNL oar from set my as the show, whatever the case may be, should the advertise benefits that was that actually paid for the original slots that came before or after that piece of content? Or should someone who paid for a pre rolled on YouTube? I'm benefit from it. And you know, so I think I think still the jury's out in terms of finding a


viable. Business model that that creates a win win throughout. But my point of view is if you take a customer Centric view. Everything else will follow behind. And I Gregor that it when I was looking through the articles, two, I was reminded of that that famous United States Supreme court God, I think it was Potter Stewart's in the sixties where they're talking about obscenities pornography. And he said, you know, I'll know it when I see it. And it's sort of like that that's all idea of fair use.


Like as it is so case by case like, you know. Well, no, it's fair when I see it. So either it does have to be somewhat polarize, either have to decide. How much is is how much and I face this. Even when I was writing either of my books and you quote an article, you quote somewhere else in its like, at what point is it? You're not quarterly article, but putting a copy of it in. In the actual new book and it's a conversation that you have at the publisher and is very much case by case. And I agree with you on the other side that if its consumer driven, you


sort of intrusion into a more interesting territory where I mean, look what, what is an influence, or if someone not really wanting to take whether it's soccer goals or football goals, or whatever it might be, and using it because they're passionate fans, and they want extol the virtues of the of the of the teams that they love. And so we have to be very careful with this. Now. Does it infringe upon rights? And suddenly you say you haven't foreign territories, people grabbing content and it's not being monetized back to the source or credit


problem. But I think we do have to find a way to delineate how to make this work for the consumer side for the Browns, everything music. You know, you bought a song, you stole a song, the song plays for radio on free. It's fine. Promotion and that's the conversation that we keep sort of falling into. There there I want to add one thing there. There's one technology that I think is starting to show some a tremendous amount of promise when it comes to attribution, and it comes to monetization and


even kind of micro attribution microbe payment is, is blockchain. And you know, I think that it's going to be very interesting. I think I I liked what Mitch sandwiches. You know who determines what is fail to make the ill? Who is the orbiter in terms of what is is okay and what is too much in what is too little? Mitch, remember the good old days at the beginning of pot costing with the pod safe network and couldn't play music. Yeah, yeah. And you I mean, and I mean,


you've always been a big fan of voice had a couple of very, you know, very at close friends, even from the music industry that you've always played their part safe music. And so it in many in many respects when we think about going back to those humble days at the beginning of pot costing, we will. We would just trying to figure out a fairway, ultimately four, you know, to be able to use content without ripping it off. To be able to afford to use that content. And in a way that kind of for this. That that


that treaty is the rising tide that floods will boats. No, I think that's right. I just do one thing I'd ad is what are we going to do about? Can. [laughter] that I've already used that title, so you can't we may we may have to that's not that's not fair use of that title. Well, it's time for the Advil five before we get the best segment of the show. I do want to take this opportunity to thank my guests again and allow them to each to a shame was plug starting with Joe Jaffe he can find him it. It's innovation


scout dotcom. Right? Is that the euro? So so. So I want to tell you something. That's that. I appreciate it very much. The the plague and yes, it is the innovation But I'm going to do what can I do my part glossed? You'll see why [laughter] okay. No, it's not what you think that I should go law. Well, actually n- now has totally screwed up because if I got it doesn't matter. But I just tell me when I can do my flag


[laughter]. You're up. Do you see what I mean? Because because anyway, I of the set up ever. I I was going back and I was looking at some of the very first episodes trying to find the first one that I was on end and and the earliest one which are nuts, I think was 57 maybe you run second year. So that would put you right around episode 57 and but those are the ones that had shown notes, the rest they may be one


earlier, but. But I came across one name and. And that was Daryl oats. And for those of you, you know that that knew him. He he passed away after a long, protracted battle with cancer. And for the most part, he kicked Kansas. But four I'd say probably eight of the twelve rounds. But unfortunately, at the end of the ballots a he he lost. His battle with cancer, and I just wanted to pay tribute and plug him and and and


his work, and all the people that knew him and worked with him. A lot of friends of the beam cost worked with him, and I am very well and said that it was my plug. I wanted it to fill all of you know, all of any kind of my own kind of light to his, because he shown a light on anti industry and you'll be truly and Saudi missed. Absolutely. Thank you so much, Joe. Next up, we have midst Joel. You can find him@miramar agency dotcoms. No, also at six pixels


dotcom from a mistaken. So tell us what's going on in your world? Mutt Mitch. How do you want to follow Jos? Eulogy for Daryl hurt. Okay, thanks Raja for sure. It just had over six You want to check me out. It also recommend highly the new book AMIS by Canada led away. He's up in right in the annals of communication at the New Yorker since nineteen Ninety-two. And he wrote this great new book about all the stuff we were battling about a today, a cold front AMIS which is a great look at the industry and I highly recommend


that. Yeah, I've been looking@that book and very interested in it, so thank you very much for that recommendation. Next up, we have Jonathan Sackett you can find him at mash burn enterprises dotcom also at all scope dotcom tell us what's going on in your world, Jonathan, what would you like to promote? Well, first and foremost, this show I always ask people to follow Bob. I would also say that Joe mccutchen Bob are three guys that I would highly recommend that everybody does business with. I would say that without falter, even if


we disagree on some tactical things. I think these guys are brilliant and I'm really happy to be on the show again, especially for the five hundreds show of my one of my closest friends, Bob. The other things I'd see we're launching Jamal mash friend and I are in group or launching g 24 which is medical marijuana with sixteen distributors. All, which we I'm the president and Evan Greenberg is the CEO there and we are taking them. We have taken them from media


Centric to full service, and I hate to do it this way. But I am finalizing a bunch of deals between two black eyes with good credit pod cast. And a bigger organization that we will be launching in, you're going to see it in the media within 30 days. So I'll be out in New York this week finalizing that. And I can't wait to announce it's going to be really awesome soul. My big announcement is there's a big announcement to come or come back and tell us about it. Definitely. As for me for more


information about me or the show visit, the being cast dotcom there you can find a complete show archive. You can find out how to consult with me. You can even find out how to advertise in the program. So check it all out@the being And don't forget if you need transcription services transcribed cast as the place to go. They'll get their great discount because they are official transcription partner in you can now get transcriptions of every episode of the being tossed about a week out from the episode post state. So. Definitely took


out transcribe, and now it's time for the ad fell five or run down of the lowest moments in advertising marketing and public relations from the last week. And first stop streaming music service title was caught not only faking streams Mitch and inflating their numbers, but doing so badly that anyone who cared to look could see that these numbers were impossible. I mean like streams that were going for 24 hours for days on end streams that were going twice on two different


streams at the same time. I mean, you figure if you're gonna fix streams, you do a better job of it than this. Why Bob, are you sincerely telling me that somebody in the entertainment business has been fleeting numbers [laughter] that's true. Yeah, but then you'd better at it occurred here that might argue otherwise. They're usually better at it though. [laughter]. Not really. Did they are? They're our landfills all over America filled with d.s albums and


cassettes my father. By the way, this is kind of goes back to the very toe. The first topic. You know of the more things change, the more their status saying. We just did a recent it'll competitive audits. Four for a pitch and one company. I had 1.7 million followers on LinkedIn. And and were looking at their posts, and each post had won like two likes one like zero likes to likes. Me


think somebody paid for their fault. I think I think that happens a lot will next up I hop or the inner how international house of pancakes caught a lot of heat this week for changing their name to international house of burgers. The stunt was roundly criticized Joe, but this fell is not going to them in my opinion. But every other self important marketing, exempt out there who hated on this without reach a researching the incredible amount of attention that this effort earned. I


mean, no, it wasn't a you know, a classic can winning marketing stunned, but it was effective. Wasn't it? Oil, I know is I saw I saw white, it was a stunt, had snot. It's it's it's not feminine [laughter]. I love the I thought Wendy's did did a great, whereas somebody, a tweeted out to Wendy's and Wendy's said that they're not really afraid of the burgers from a place at the sight of pancakes were too hard. [laughter]. I saw this thing by the way, a man man walks into I


hog at weight comes up and goes welcome to I hope the international house of burgers. What would you like? He looks he looks up as pancakes [laughter]. Now sir Morton's exit package is $26 million, not so bad for a semi jigs stray sticks, chairman, wouldn't you say they're Jonathan? This home? This one doesn't surprise me in the least, but it shows just how bad the industry has at its core [laughter]. Well, it it


hits home, close to home is you know because Serb Martin Sorrell was the one who hired me for the North American role, soul. I I have worked with him in the past. I'm not surprised that everybody is a little bit peeved about that and about the circumstances of that money going out. What I am surprised about is that the non compete. That that he didn't have to sign. That's amazing. So I don't know what the what the paper is going to be, the W p. P but look out


as a current employees W he'd be I should probably stick out, stick my nose out of this, but I won't [laughter]. I think what people need to do is look back at how his compensation work, and I'm not going to justify ignoring her C e. O payments on CEO's as is as insane as it is. But he was very much compensated primarily on performance and and boy did it ever performed in the end and where he's at, how it ended? Not so much stock down close to 30%. Now we all know the


details, but still the package is the package. And I don't. He I I think there's a real hard things to go back on once they were once they're set when they were set when times were better as they say. Yeah. That's assuming he left on good terms, which he kind of did kind of did. So it's just like I think the shareholders have a right to be upset about the way that he was awarded. This package, even though. He was potentially cast out of his own company because of listen, I gave her only


if they were complaining when times were good. Well, mixed up somebody's gotta to pronounce this for me as a chip stone shops, though in the U k. was running away this this town in the u k Colchester that was proud of the fact that they were a plastic free town and they wanted the promoted heavily. So what did they do? Mitch the he hung a banner at the main archway into the town. A banner made entirely of plastic. I'd love. That's what missus so great. It's


both have face palm and in one my immediate reaction was while I hope it was recyclable [laughter]. I hope so too. And finally, you know, all women hates sports right now. They just can't stands for it. So how can we shut them up and keep them happy while we men watch Aruba? The World Cup in our in a silence slow boy, I'm like doing turbo about this. This is a terrible ahead [laughter] days. So let's go apparently, according to a Mexican lingerie


bran, what should we do? We should buy them vibrating, pennies. This is a new low for advertising and entire commercial showing that you can buy her para vibrating pennies, to keep her happy while you watch the World Cup. This is jasmine as much. Sexism was like a shoving. The one ad. Oh, Bob, Bob, please call on me for this one who was going to say as fast faith popcorn left the [laughter]. Yeah. You know what? I got to tell you though, in in all fairness, if


somebody was to sell me some vibrating boxers, I'd buy a man watch soccer [laughter]. We'll have something to things going to give up this up [laughter]. I did. Do they come in sizes for miles asking for a friend [laughter]? We'll have something to add to this Email or just wanted to discuss it. Common online. Use the hash tag fell five that's pound add fell. And the number five. Well, that does it for this week's show if you'd like to subscribe to this pod


cast visit our website@the bean cast dotcom and click on the subscribe link. If you're lied, tunes listener. We've also provided a direct link to the eye tunes music store, or just search for the being cast in the pod cast directory of vitamins, and whichever pod cast director you use when you subscribe. Please leave us a review. Got a comment. Have a question we'd love to hear from you. Just send your emails to being cast a g mail. Dotcom opening theme was performed by Joe cyber closing theme by sea jacks.


Thanks for listening. I'm Bob, nor will be back again next week. Hope you'll join us then. It's


funny. Exactly.


Cool beans.