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BeanCast 509 Transcript

BeanCast 509: Moving the Dog Dish

Date: 20-Aug-2018

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This episode of the being cast is brought to you by linked in when you advertise on linked in, you can build lasting relationships with customers that often translate to high quality leads, website traffic and higher brand awareness for a free $100 linked in ad credit. Go linked cast terms and conditions apply. Bandwith provided by recruits of squirrel, interactive transcription services provided by transcribing, visit them on the


web@transcribe cast for up to 25% off. That's transcribe Episode 500 9 moving the dog dish.


For Monday August 20th 2018 it's time for this week's addition of the beam cast a discussion without the views and issues facing marketers. Today, I'm your host, Bob nork. Thanks for joining us most every brand out there is finally taking in sports seriously and many are making the leap into the


space with various promotions and endorsement deals. But are they employing effective strategies or simply running a hike boy? Tonight we'll discuss also what to do about nurturing Cowan agency world. What's blocking voice from retail success, whether Facebook and fleets its reach. Plus this week's pad fell five. That's the lineup. Let's meet tonight's panel.


Thanks for joining us for this week's been cast on Bob nork in with me on the panel for this evening, we start with the super advisor at the innovation scout author speaker Mr. Joseph Jaffe hey, Joe. And I'm excited to be first on the coolest tonight. It almost never happens in no, never happened skipping placement in the alphabet. We have a bottom heavy alphabet tonight also with us, we have the


chief marketing officer of our P a. Mr. Tim leak is here heighten a Bob. I'm happy to be second on the list today [laughter]. I feel bad for number three number four. Next up we have the CEO of agencies streamlined and bold culture. Mr. Darin Martin is here, hey Dern. Hey, Bob at excited to be back in. I'm happy. Be 3rd in line as well [laughter] only the coming in last place. We're pleased to welcome back the president and chief


creative officer at all spoke as well as board member of Mashburn enterprises. Mr Jonathan socket. John John, I'd like home unwittingly Likhotal jogging now [laughter] and I call it. And what's the hook? Nobody's ever calls you John? What's this about what's going on today? First of all, by the way, everybody listening Bob got me on the show at the last minute because the other Jonathon can [laughter]. Somebody play


the fog horn for being here. [laughter] it was the easiest thing to do [laughter]. Just step for Jonathan delay. All right. Well, let's go to jump into the topics of first of many people including pass guests on the show of talked a few civilly about the potential vs sports for sponsorship. But does the sponsorship deals attract more mainstream brands? And fortunately many of those same brands aren't evolving their strategies to best


capitalize on the medium, sir. Darren, why do so many advertisers remain puzzled about how to build an effective e sports strategy? Is it really that hard to figure out what's going on in this space? I don't think it's that hard. I think research would help them or marketing agencies will help them. I think that, you know for me, I'd be I'd say that I'm a person who has looked at the research noted, spending projections for east


for its many of the brands that we've worked with, of course, have not talked about it. I think there there's education that needs to be built on the brand side or their agencies, but also on the east force organization. Right? So the levels of sponsorships that they can do, what's the provided value. We look at e sports in. It's like the target audience is around 21 to 35 mostly men. This is the deal. Any Lucifer audience. How are we necessarily


connecting to them when they're in this being you and then how can we connect with them when they're like outside? And so some of that stuff. I think they should look at it as a general campaign, and I'm really sports is really just experiential, right? We started gaming at home before you go further. I mean, it's just like I want to backup and talk about this audience factor that you brought up the 20 year old, the 30 year old guy who's watching a sports.


You know, in some ways that's the problem we were looking at this as an audience based on age group and desires and video game habits. Instead of the fact that each and every single one of these games is different and attracts a different audience with different motivations. And I think that's the thing that's tripping up. Most advertisers, we don't understand that this is not buying 30 40 million people watching east sports. This is about


what you know gathering that four million watching this game in the hundred thousand watching that game. Yeah, I think it's what what's the value add of, again, for the brand to connect to that specific game itself? And so I think that was going to be one of the points of integrating Debrecen with the game itself is actually more valuable because then you could of course, work with the influencers on that specific game, do certain experiential things. It's at larger sponsorship or a campaign level than


just, you know, the the simple ad buys. But yet the den take again, which brand necessarily wants to connect with which game and or a cluster of games. And then the audiences themselves. I speak up 21 to 35 being as a target audience, but my eight year old niece watches gains on her YouTube channel. And I'm very sure she want to go on to any event when she you know if she could, right? So. You're absolutely


right. I think that the audience segmentation is so fragmented to the point that people are scared to grab onto e sports as a whole. Yeah, and what concerns me about that and concerns me about the growth of these sports is an ad medium? Is that because it's so difficult to understand all the different games and to understand what the the the push points are on every single audience. It becomes


a another complicated influence or type strategy where you're dealing with lots of micro audiences instead of buying one big audience, which is I think where people thought they were going to get what they were going to getting. I mean. Get but if it works for the brand, it works for the brand, and I think it goes back to what's the value wet specific Brandon, what's the value of that? And then how do you extend that value, right? So I think that that's something that the brands on the marketing side in their agencies have to figure out if it's a great by if it's


an extension of value for that specific brand, then why not go after it. I think that the research needs to be done or to your point some of the e sports organizations need to be looking at how can we identify in educate agencies and brands on the types of in levels of sponsorships and where the audience segments are across different generations so that we can build value and affinity. Tim, I want to bring you into this conversation as a as a


sales person is the person developing relationships and marketing your agency. You have to have an understanding of what exactly's going to motivate your customers, and it's going to give them the best possible experience with your product is part of the blame of this e sports conundrum. The fact that e sports itself is maybe not doing a strong enough job of selling these ideas to the brands and selling these ideas to the agencies in a way that makes it


understandable and understand how to effectively utilize the platform further strategies. Yeah, I think there's probably a lot of that. The last thing the derringer just said is is key. If they don't get out there and explain to the agency's new marketers, what the opportunity is, what the easiest way is to do it. It's actually very hard. You know, going back to your initial question that you asked, one of the reasons I think we don't get this is because a lot of marketers. Don't do that. They don't watch gaming, they they don't pay


attention to sports that they it's not on a lot of older people's radar or or or or the they actually play video games, but they don't watch the sporting events themselves in the overlay that experience with video games and say, oh, this is just marketing. The video games. I understand this and they don't really understand the culture. Yeah. And so I do think, you know, one of the it's true across a lot of different social platforms, indifferent. What? At tech


opportunities, the best ones always find a way to be constantly training their customers and constantly training the agencies or the brands themselves on what the opportunity is, and how people are using this platform because it's almost impossible for any one person to understand. How any niche audiences uses and Nisha platform? There's just so many of them now. So it's more complicated and that's got to be part of the job.


Jonathan was going to go to you next. What your what are your thoughts on this? Cool, yes. Can me. It was Jonathan speaking did I'm [laughter]. But you know what? I'll gladly take the baton. I would repeatedly ask you [laughter] refer to me as 4th and if the [laughter]. Okay. I'm interested to see what you just think about this because I still think it, at least in my humble experience. I still think there's a


misunderstanding of audience. I think as soon as we say, you know, males between 21 and 35 and you're talking about east sports or gaming. I think your your mind automatically jumps to 30 year old dude on his parents, culture in the basement. You know, maybe that's just me, but I I think I think if if we don't get a better understanding of audience and in the interdependence of the audience with the platform itself, that's how you determine how you're going to market to them. And I don't. I just don't think that


anybody's digging deep enough into that market to understand this. That's what I think the. Yeah, I'm one of the most eye-opening experiences I had was when the league the runs Doda to an event here in Manhattan and invited me to go to Madison Square Garden theater to actually see a live event. I had no idea what to expect, and it was unbelievable, how rap the attention and how tense the room was, and how people cheered at the right moments. And I had no idea what was going on


and scream, but the game itself translated into a sporting event as big as exciting as any kind of baseball game I've ever been to, you know. Well, you know, you know what, you're absolutely right. Have you have you ever been to a NASCAR event? No, that's the epitome of excitement. The race when my entire life. And that was when I lived in Richmond, Virginia, and I gotta tell you they give you this hand-held device, and you can choose the


cockpit of any driver you want at any given time and get their point of view. So I mean, they've got it. Yeah, it was. It was actually pretty interesting. I mean, the crowd watching was more fun than watching the race, to be honest with you, but. But they've got I mean, shirts are optional. That's great. Mullets are required and it was really, but it was a lot of fun. What ends up happening is you've got interactivities between device car, race and sponsor. So they've got they've got that parking lot down, man, they're there to sell you


stuff. They've got it down. Everybody else. Like I said, no, no, you're market. What I see as being a huge opportunity for eastwards Joe is not what most advertisers seemed to be embracing. Like when I look at. What the opportunities for sports are something like what Jonathan said is much more in line with the audience than doing an influence or campaign earn a sponsorship or an endorsement deal with one of the game stars. And I


think that. You know, we have this expectation that we were working within the east sports realm, that somehow we can apply all or sporting metaphors and all our sporting tactics that we've used for years and make them work in this same venue. And I'm wondering will the audience. Will will the league gain enough momentum said some point that kind of strategy will be effective. Or is it always going to be kind of a Malays of trying to figure out


what each an audience wants to have, what each audience wants to embrace into, basically create some kind of. Energy around it. Did that? But that was the longest. The longest intro f I di-. I didn't even know what the question was. Y- yes. Yes. Now the western seven hey, I. Because I don't like being 4th either


[laughter]. Hey, I'm in last place your body. So I find this whole topic kind of humorous because you know. Any advertising even debating the efficacy or the potential of e sports is clearly not focused in and have the eyes on the prize. I mean, this. You know, and I don't want to call it a medium because the worst thing we could do is start talking about it in our stupid little grubby advertising terms and


try and figure out how to create pop-ups in interstitial and and coke cans. And it's just I mean, we we we've seen this time and time again with with even previous iterations of gaming or virtual worlds, whatever the case may be. If we really are focused on audience. And instead of just looking at reach and numbers, we should be looking at time spent and engagement. And at the end of the day, this is one of the fastest


growing. It's a cultural phenomena. I was doing a little bit of extra research on the topic and my boys all all other fortnight and now the single Friday, I think they call it Friday night. Oh four, not Fridays that are getting more unique streams on all or or more unique audience in the Walking Dead. So he audiences there. The reach is there. The question comes


down to being able to be creative and actually doing a little bit of work instead of expecting this to full on their laps, like a like a silver platter. And I mean, I'm aware of any no this through my boys, but I'll just give you two examples of how this is kind of a ready at mainstreaming, if you will. So for the avengers movie. There was this brilliant tionna I don't know how much of it was paid or not paid with with


fences glove was was in every single game and it was just randomly hidden. What was in a chest or was, you know you had to kind of dig dig it up. And once you put the glove on, you became final. So you became almost superlative a powerful and had a little bit of an unfair advantage. What a brilliant tie in to a movie that that quite frankly did very well. And it didn't have to things that a lot of sponsors


miss out on when they're trying to work within the sports realm. I mean, it gave you an opportunity to play with the ad in an interesting way, play with the promotion in a way that matter. And you put it as part of the actual content. I mean, those two factors made for an a fantastic. They probably generate a lot of interest in the movie that was probably already. And to begin with. And I think that's a really smart strategy. I just I just I I don't want us to call


it adds so advertising because I think it's well call it an ad like object. I mean, that's what Colin Guam always calls it. I mean, it's just like add like objects or the new way to reach a consumer. It's not an advertisement budget are right. And and you know, you know, one of the things also in in if was one of the source articles or just one of the ones that I picked up its. There are certain industries and brands that clearly all cold, that endemic to e sports and gaming in general. And then and


then there are those that just have to actually use their brains and do a little bit of thinking and actually kind of do some real work. To be able to kind of make that connection or stabbed that connection. And I think probably wear the gap will the lag is coming from all these mainstream brands that all kind of sitting on the sidelines, waiting for somebody else to make the first move as being left behind. Yeah, but if they don't know also, I don't want to put


the total blame of course on the brands. The agencies, if they don't know, I'm at the eastwards organizations are showing this value. This valuable audience won. The reaches a second thing. The idea that it's a valuable audience who's watching who's engaging is definitely the first thing they don't know about it. Then you know, they need to be educated. So on the east force organization side, if they want to get to that 1.5 billion or more in 20 20 they have to start in ingesting themselves where the other brands are, who are not. Can be


our we're not advertised or working with them with an experience or an ad like object, right? They need to be at certain events or be alike. They at ad weeks or things. Maybe I love it if they invited certain people, or maybe even thrown a through a smaller, a gaming or experience. So people can see it within the industry. So while the brands and the agencies need to get smart and they need to open up their eyes and see what's going on in the real world. And I we do we talk about that a lot


of the organizations and their salespeople, their marketing teams need to do better at the unique ways in creative ways in which they reach those brands who are not. With them. You know, I'll just say I remember a reporter contacting us. From a pretty mainstream. Let.s say newspapers/magazine and this is when I was running crayon, and it was all about second life, the whole virtual world of second life. And and we sat


down, we had a whole long conversation, and then they asked me what I mind giving them a demonstration of second loss. I said, what do you mean a [laughter] so much about? I've heard so much about it, but I haven't actually gone into second life. And I think you know at the end of the day, whether you know, agencies or brands, if they're not actually running up their sleeves any en any missing themselves and I think you were alluding to it. But ultimately, the onus is not on the east. Also the gaming industry.


The onus is on the brands and their agencies to figure it out and not expect the this Saleh's to ingratiate themselves because I, I think I think it's different this time already do. Yeah. I think it's I'm not I'm definitely saying it's a shared interests on both sides agencies need to do it just because it's their jobs. I totally agree with that. Well, I want to move on and talk a little bit about Asian season about the talent nurturing


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00:23:58 cast that address again, is linked cast for your free $100 ad credit terms and conditions apply. Give it a try and see for yourself what Lincoln does for you. And we thank them very much for their support of the being cast. We're moving on, I read an interesting article on the drum this past week, the contrast in talent management in tech firms with talent management in agencies.


Now in this article, it outlined how the differences were off point of view. But perhaps the most striking dichotomy for me was that while tech firms often encouraged development of skills and knowledge outside of a job skill set agencies higher, they promote and the fire based not on potential skills, but rather performance of the narrowly defined tasks of the job itself. So Joe, there's a case to be made for each of these approaches, but


is one better for business. What's your take on this kind of juxtaposition of the two different methodologies in which do feels better? I'm sorry, I was just busy redeeming my hundred dollar linked him [laughter]. Really, I just redeemed at [laughter] sending your screen shot in [laughter] good. One of very proud of you. That was it was awesome. What was the question again? [laughter]? Okay, so


when I I don't know if I've if I've ever shared this little anecdotes town, it'll anecdote. But when I came to this country 21 years ago, I worked at got a job at Ogilvy as an e and. One of the things that you're struck me was everyone's. Name was on a a beautiful kind of durable plastic square because you know, just the whole branding Ogilvy red and so on and so


forth. Red square. My my name Joseph Jaffe in white. But it was on a magnet. Hinna in so. You just put it onto the dole wavier was. And then if you've got, I suppose fired or or or or let go, they're just take the magneto from put another magnet on. And and and I guess in a there was some practical usage, which is if you moved offices, you got a promotion, they just move your name magnets and move it around. But it just struck me


wasn't obviously just endemic Togo v it's every single company, how transient their approach to talent is, and and and I and I'm pretty sure every single person's company on this call even listening. See exactly the case. You don't see something that looks like a permanent investment in that piece of talent, which is we'll actual name into the door, and we'll have to get a new door if you leave with something like that. And so I think now on the flip side and I will


never forget this at Ogilvy we went through this ATP account executive training program. It was the most incredible training program. I look forward to every single week. I learned so much about presentation skills about research about everything. That that training program is no more at Ogilvy and probably hasn't been there for 10 or fifteen years. And again, this is not against Oakland anyways, just personal anecdote. The fact is the


investment in talent is so marginal within the agency business today and who can blame them based on whatever the margins are coming from clients now to your now. Now contrast that with Google, for example Google instituted this 60 30 10 approach, will this 10% approach specifically to the engineers where. 10% of the time is, should be fed, has to be spent on things that have absolutely nothing to do with a job, nothing to do their job,


whether it's skydiving, it doesn't matter cooking. The whole idea is to continue to. But you know, build the diversity and they and they skill set with sometimes even lateral tasks that can allow them to be more and better rounded. And then again, and the final exhibit, I suppose if you look at the. Startup world, it is all about collaboration. It's all about combining different skill sets, as opposed to saying you're in the traffic department. You're in the production department


era, creative, you're in client service. So until we see innovation and until we see some kind of. Tearing down of these walls and silos within the agency business, and of course, that's the context of of this topic. How on earth are agency is going to be able to attract and retain the best and brightest, and be able to compete with the likes of Google's is just not going to be possible. Darren, you're an agency leader, you're dealing with this issue with talent management. I mean,


what do you think about this? I mean, is it smart to give your employees a lot of opportunity in Lee way to learn and grow and maybe get some personal joy out of their own moon devils as opposed to actually focusing on work on work time, which seems like a yeah, absolutely. On the streamlines that I think it's a necessity we're trying to we're working with one. Where we are in a current juncture, contractors, right? So it's very fun to be able to


work with people in L a. and Georgia in my and in Florida in different parts of the U s. and world right in. So they are doing. Things I namely on the culture side when we go to agencies and they're looking for us to ha- how they can hire and retain divers talent is exactly what Joe was saying. You know, it's why agencies are having a problem connecting to Nishi in diverse audiences, right?


They don't have the understanding of culture is very just like, get the job done. Here's the client, here's what we need to do. And because things are running, I we experience on the streamline side rates. It's great to see this. And both ways you're running to get client deliverables, the margins aren't as high. Talent attrition is high right in, so you don't have this sits space where talent is being nurtured a you'd have time to do the classes, but it's so important and it's so important for people to step outside of


what they're doing and to follow what's going on in the world. It goes back to our crank. I last conversation on e sports, right? People aren't able to experience that because in the agency world, their heads down, trying to get this out and they're not eating. They can't be creative rights. They need to be able to build and learn and understand so that they can come next to the audiences who they are trying to talk. And Darren, I mean, can you imagine in these in these agency environments where you might have a younger.


Employees, maybe even someone who's actually into e sports and gaming that goes to the agency and says, can I go to this event? And they're basically saying, look, if you want to go to the van, you're gonna have to take leave and will pay on way. There is an exactly. The kinds of places. They should be going to. Absolutely, absolutely. And so they're not supporting their talent. So that's why the talent lead they get the expertise and then they leave and they start their own agency possibly if they're interested, it's an e sports, say smart, start their


e sports agency. And they go after the big dollars, they've become competitors, right? So agencies have to start training. Their talent and understand that people have to learn, and that especially with digital changing in in so many people putting their dollars in digital. We all have to learn to think it's changing everyday. Facebook, Twitter, Google itself is changing. So if they are, we need to put our understanding him. You know where the culture and where the world is going. Well, let me let me play devil's advocate on this


for a minute because. Well, my heart is with you guys in terms of how you should manage your talent and how he should. Give them the opportunities to expand their horizons. I still have to admit that you have a couple of big players that are doing this and have been very successful. You also have a couple of big players like, say, Amazon, that don't encourage this type of behavior and they're doing just fine. And you've got a lot of young startup companies that want to be hip and millennial, and do these types of things,


but they're not turning a profit. So is it really the best way to go about your business to encourage employees, to basically goof off? Characterize it, but just encouraging the goof off. Is that the best way to get the most value out of your employees and get the job actually completed? In my opinion, no. I mean, in my opinion, you need to do a mix of both, right? You want


to, of course, be productive. But if you look at Amazon and the reports of where there is their talent right and dim feeling overwhelmed in India, no health. In different factors that went into Amazon and we read about over the years around their productivity, sure, they can be productive and they could have warehouses of people working with those people are tired and uninspired and that's also something that's more of a systematic job right now. It's a credit and your credit, and


it's a job and it's like it's terrible. And I'm not trying to suggest that it's a good approach. I agree with you, but at the same time, they are incredibly successful second most profitable or second, most valuable company in the world right now. But if you're an agency, your job is to. To speak to the culture and speak to what people are doing in order for them to buy Amazon's product right or someone else's for their brands products. And so the game has to be different. We're talking about people trying to connect and talk to people, and if


I'm tired, I'm uninspired and I'm not going to give you my best work, and I'm not going to be able to connect with you and away in the campaigns that Iran or that I try to gain for my agency because I'm an inspires. I need to be on the ground, and I think the agencies don't do enough of that. And that's why we have problems with things like Pepsi, things like e sports, things like everything else that they mess up on is because they are so busy in their own minds, too many different factors that they cannot step


out there. So I think it is. And is a key word that that you just said, which is so critical and it it. It really is a common thread across the first two themes, which is the wood culture. Because when you look today and were picking on the agencies to the tonight, so let's just talk about the the brands out there. You know. I often I often say to them, you know, wearing jeans and having standing desk does not make you as a startup. They all think that they're so entrepreneurial because they've got standing


desks. So saying, oh, they put in a ping pong table and bean bags. And now they think they're cool and hip, and they're not. Because it's because it's not authentic and it's not consistent with a culture. The culture is, is horribly horribly flawed in a an an and struggling to adapt and struggling to kind of connect. With this, this changing workforce. And so the bottom it's so isn't about goofing off if it is well, I mean, it would be if it isn't authentic and it just


becomes, you know, throwing throwing this almost candy candy, in a sense. And so I think I think really what this is forcing us to do is to look at the book at the culture of these companies and figure out how do we create something that feels. Authentic and consistent and can enjoy, as opposed to being this kind of flesh and the pen. Can can I jump in speak, speak on behalf of agencies for second, because they think we're painting with a really broad


brush when we say that agencies don't make this investment in. We pivoted a little bit from training to let people goof off on on the company dime. And I don't think most agencies I think there and said this earlier, we don't really have the margins to always justify that. But if it's the right thing and it's right for. What that person does, I know lots of agencies that support that sort of thing and then invest in that. Okay, blue to to


clarify. I mean, that's what the article was saying that it's just like I what you're basically claiming is that your agency decides yes, this is something that could potentially benefit you. You made a case for how it could benefit this job function. You're allowed to do it. Whereas the tech companies that are embracing a more open strategy or just saying whatever you wanna do, let's find out what kind of value comes back with. You know what I mean? Which is much more


exploratory way to go about it because you don't always know how something's gonna benefit you. I mean, I wouldn't have known how my understanding of east sports would have been so broad. And just by going to this stupid event that I was conned into going to buy a PR flag, you know, but I did and I was really had my eyes opened to the potential. Of eastwards and I could've never made a case for that. Having people the best people out, there are always going to find ways to apply interesting things. And I think the


best agencies out there are going to find ways to give people that space to be able to. Explore that I it's hard without speaking about specifics because going in experiencing any sports event is different than say. Taking a two month trip around the world or. I don't know taking time to rebuild hot rod or something. So you know the specifics matter in terms of what that is, where my be able to come back. And I I'm a big believer in in sort of like,


you know, the the 70 20 10 and and able to do whatever you want with that 10 be able to explore it. And it's just it's not as simple as being able to say, oh, well, agencies just don't invest in that. I mean, there are very few companies that are on the scale of a Google or an Amazon or something that happened, that those kind of margins not kind of profit that they can. They can spend so much money, investing those things. And I don't want to come across being overly. Conservative by the approach, because


there's a lot that certainly we in at my agency and in a lot of other agencies that I know about invest in to be able to bring training to our employees and to be able to create these kinds of opportunities. And I think it's not always fair to compare. What Google is doing, say to everybody else is doing. Fair enough, fair enough. And your annual, by the way you know on the bean costs we we liked to paint with broad brushes. Well, it's great to have the suspect. In


fact, when we look at the logo, it's not a ponytail coming off the top being, it's a brush. So the. But I. I wanted to add. 1 point, which is. Look, I and I and I think and I think everything that you're saying is, is is a good perspective and something that needs to be put on the table. I think the challenge is to compare the agencies to Google is. We didn't do it. I mean it was okay, so he's moved on, but it was Martin


sorelle coming out with this kind of, you know. I don't know if it was a rental or he was just kind of whining or whatever it was, but he was complaining that WPP's lunch was being stolen on two sides on one side or the consultancy's the Deloittes and the PWS's season essentials of the world. And on the other side, the googles and Facebook. So. It it's just it's it's a real problem and it's there. And and if it's happening at that level, you can be sure it's happening multiple


levels below. So I think that's kind of the challenge it is. We will always have that challenge. I mean, if if if the advertising industry cannot pay what the consultancies paying cannot pay with Google pays, it cannot offer those same things. Because fundamentally. Google makes more money and consultancies make more money. They both have higher profit margins. That's a problem. And I think that, you know, then we change topics, and we start to go about the. The the the whole on compensation issue with


agencies, but. You know, as long as then clients are are continuing to squeeze the profit margins on behalf of agencies that's going to continue to be a problem, which means they don't get the best talent. So it's. Yes, it's something we have to deal with, but there's no easy answer to it. You if somebody has more money to spend. You'll always lose to them, and I'd like to add just on that that you know if there's not a lot of money to spend, and we talk about experiences in having the idea


ability for talent to go out into the world. It's bringing the world into the agency. In my opinion, it's what we tell agencies at all culture it. So working with cultural organizations who are already doing work and then having them come into the agency. I think it's inexperience that people would then use that as a as a compensation method, right? So how can the talent learn both on a skill level in different departments of the agency so they can be more valuable for


the gear or their company, but then also how can the company and and the executives bring culture into the agencies that if you don't have time to go out, then we can bring it to you. And I didn't fairness. When I I I don't think any agency out there saying up their hands and go, not what we're just not going to be able to. Make it work. I think actually we were using our our secret weapon, which is creativity and coming up with really interesting things to do to to be able to make


our our cultures attractive and to make what we're doing attractive. And you know, I think we get our fair share of talent. And sometimes we we train them and they're awesome. And then Google goes in, hires them [laughter]. That's a great compliment through our town. Well, I gotta move on the next topic. This is fascinating this conversation, but we have to move on more questioning of potential voice marketing this week Azad week wonders in depth whether voices ready for retail.


Well, people love you, love their voice, activated devices for things like tasks, shopping still accounts for a tiny, tiny fraction of the actively, Jonathan, our players like Amazon. Amazon comes up again or players like Amazon doing something wrong, or is the activities still too new to be gaining significant traction? What's going on with. The kind of latency in terms of adopting voice as a searching mechanism, still searching for shopping, mechanism that searching


mechanism, but go for it. Yeah, I think. Well, first of all, I want to just quickly dead that last question that we were on with these agencies with the training and such. I gotta tell you, I mean it's it's everything is about. Personal initiative. Okay. So. I think with when you apply that to shopping and when you apply that to voice command, I think what's happening is there's a bid people don't want to dip their toll on the water, and they're waiting for somebody else to go. I that's what I've seen firsthand. I have to tell you it is. It is the


next it is one of the next frontiers out there. I believe voice. Voice is going to overtake everything. It is going to it. It's just the problem is that I don't believe that anymore. I mean, I I'm I've been an early adopter in terms of understanding voice in covering voice, and I've been really espousing the importance of it since I first learned about Siri, way back in the day when Syria was just a new product. Even before it was bought by apple, yet the


reality is, yes. It's an important part of the puzzle of how we're going to interact with our devices, but. By no means is that the only way we're going to interact with our devices and it's certainly not going to be the primary way that we interact with all our devices. Going forward, you know, you know what, though, Bob, I think. I mean, I I hear what you're saying, but I I disagree only in that I do believe. But the keyboard is going to become obsolete. I really think so. I think of did now


whether that applies to online shopping, whether it applies to, you know, image search, whether that applies to social, whatever people want to hear their own voice. And the and frankly, right now, people want to see their own text messages and cell fees. I think people are gonna wanna hear their own voice, more soul. And besides that it's not only going to track vernacular and terminology. It's going to also detect tone and tonality and I think that to me, I think that the before I think that's the frontier because what happens is, when you can eliminate the keyboard,


things are gonna come faster, better smarter, and more reactive to the way that you're searching for them. And I think voice is the way to go. That's that's my opinion. I just the the what we're missing or what we still need, I think is is the monitor and a lot of times, you know, when we think about voice assistance, they've done away with a monitor and when it comes to shopping, it's easy to use voices in interface right to to, to use it instead of a keyboard to use it to talk to you. It's much simpler. Absolutely, but it's


very difficult to know what's happening on the other side without the feedback loop of the monitor screen. And so I think in you can see Amazon starting build screens into a lot of their Alexa powered devices. Now, I think we're going to see that start to creep back in because it would be much easier to shop if I can say. You know, I I shouldn't say her name out loud or else. [laughter] starting my Amazon echo device named. If you say you're her name


and and ask about shopping. If he could pop up, say, you know, five shoes that that I have to choose from, or the different sizes of Illy brand coffee that I might have asked about it because there's so much uncertainty on the other end. When it comes to shopping specifically. You really want to make sure that you got it right unless you just re ordering something you order over and over again. Simply interfacing with voice and then just hearing it back isn't annoy illicit, I think. I think that's I think you're absolutely dead on. I think because look. When it


comes to the shopping experience, it's a visual experience, and it's funny because online shopping period is taken off so much Ben and I remembered seeing years ago the predictions that online shopping wasn't gonna do it because that touchy feely isn't a part of the equation. If you're doing it online. Well, tell that to Amazon right. And I do think you're right. I think the the visual component mixed in with the audio command. I think that's the way to go. Exactly. And that's that's the core of my point here is this like,


yes, will interact with our devices will interact in the shopping experience with voice. But we're kind of like groping in the dark when we're using these voice devices as the exist today. Voice in isolation. If if if a tree falls in the woods right to same thing, I mean, if if if people if we don't do utilize it as a component to it, because like I said, I'm not gonna buy that sweater unless they see it right. But if I if I could do a voice search for it, while I'm doing the dishes or


something, you know, it allows that multitasking it the that multitasking allows for you to do. More shopping, more voice command, more more products. I mean, you're going to get a better opportunity. But again, if I can't see it, I can't buy it right. Yeah, fair enough. Anything less anything, the, the other panelists wanna add here before we move on. Darren, anything that you want to add to this conversation about voice? Nope, I think you all knocked it out there. Use a


Alexa actually had a looks at it. He doesn't use it. So I'm fact because because we don't care about you, people with Alexa, Alexa overrating. Erin. Because I need to see what I'm buying right? I just I haven't adopted that experience yet. I know many people have and it's a it's a large thing, but for me it's just like. I need to know what I'm buying, and I need to know. The quantity and then it may be much easier for me to just go on Amazon or


disco in. You know, just. Re by this at all with that, that's the whole thing. That's that's the core my problem. Think back to the shopping behavior and when when you're when you're in a store or when you're in a website, large degrees of that shopping, go on without any verbal communication. It's all about touch our sight or smell, or whenever other sense you to engage, but it's not you actually using your voice in that process. And I


think that's why voice has been so slow to ramp up on the economy side of things. And it's it's not engaging people in a way that. The typical website has done to replace the in store experience which visual there. That's true, Bob, but I gotta tell you, first of all, I don't like your attitude [laughter]. Still bitter for being 4th. You know, you're you're absolutely right, but I I just have to


say this, you know that for years now I've consulted annually with YouTube, right? The thing about YouTube is they're trying to get you to to increase your session time. Okay, and that's the been their biggest challenge over the years, because the trained us to come in and look for something and then get out. And that's the same thing with with voice or whatever, because it's winner by design and not by default. So the voice and utilization of voice and things like that. If you've got a move that was used to say, you move the dog dish an inch at a time until the dog eats on


the rug. Well, that's it's the same thing. Somebody's got to take the right first steps to get you to, to get that in green to online shopping. You know, it's it's been around long enough now, but the thing is is that if somebody's not going to start to move the dog, nobody's going to eat on the rug. How about that? The dog dish that they love a metaphor and it's probably the name of the show [laughter] win again. You go excessive accessability standpoint just


really quickly accessability standpoint. Voice does allow many older generations people who may have disabilities. I think to us, you know their voice in different ways to to purchase to us to to you know, navigate news and sports. I see. I think that it's definitely. A large value, I think once you integrate the screens and everything else, it just becomes a better experience for me.


So I was just, you know, I was just going to add that. If anything I think I think the industry has done too much to hide voice as opposed to two little. I mean it's definitely were were still it's early days and and use the diffusion of innovations kind of methodology where were still at the innovative stage and maybe a little bit of the early adopters. So we're we're still at the three or four percent. Of the entire market and and that's


okay. That's fine. We just need more use cases and more natural places where it's going to just make sense. And I and and for example, I don't think it's a leap of faith at all to to look at as opposed to the Samsung refrigerator from three or four years ago. And that was clearly way way too early in the game. There's gonna come a time sooner rather than later way. You will be able to open up your refrigerator. You will be able to see that you're low on multi. Not because it tells you


that because you you're because you have a brain and you have is and you have hands and you'll pick it up and go, oh crap, we've run out of milk and that's a natural place to be able to hit a button. No available to say, you know, I want to it so that everyone's you know, things go off. But. Can you give me some more, maybe not mulk oil put this on my list or whatever the case may be, and that's when you'll start to see comedy. It'll ramp ups when we can actually embed voice technology as it relates to commerce


at these natural points when it just makes sense to be able to buy something. And that'll that'll start the start the movement in the right direction. Well, moving onto the final topic, a Kansas, aromatherapy store storeowner boy, that's a mouthful, is suing Facebook over allegedly inflating their audience numbers when targeting ads. Look, I don't doubt that there's something behind the scenes and there's all kinds of weirdness going on, Tim, but how likely


is it that Facebook is boldly and boldly inflating audience reach here? Well, I, I think it's maybe a little bit dangerous to pick on Facebook in an episode sponsored by linked in. So we'll try [laughter]. I bet one hundred dollar dollar car to come on a hundred dollars, a bad credit [laughter]. I mean, Facebook is an amazingly effective platform for advertisers. I'm a huge fan of linked in an end of Facebook, and I so I don't get why they would focus on purpose.


I think the challenge really just has to do with they need a good explanation because as as read the article and this was sort of build on something that seemed to pop last September where basically somebody people in general realized that whatever the potential reach the Facebook says it tends to be significantly higher than the census data of the total population. Which is hard to swallow, right? So you know, if this woman from the census data


says is there's 800000 residents in Chicago in eighteen to 34 demo. Facebook says they can reach 1.9 million would have to be able to explain that because it's common sense just to say, that doesn't sound right. And when common sense goes off, the spider stent starts going. This sounds fishy. This is weird. Why being lied to? And data can be fuzzier than we wish it was. It's. It's just how it is that they just have to explain it. Well, it wouldn't be the first time somebody inflated


their traffic either. You know. And besides that, maybe they're counting eyeballs, not people [laughter] amount. Oh man. Well, I mean, it's just like I I see that, but I still don't see the I can't necessarily get behind this idea that it's intentional inflation. Like, you know. I think that it's the slickest stupidity or it's you know, double


counting of numbers were fake accounts or something else is in the mix that's causing a problem. And it needs to be fixed and thank God. We're pointing this out now. And Facebook is hopefully going to try to do something about this, but to say that they're actively trying to inflate numbers in such a bold way. It's it seems highly unlikely, but I mean, I've heard were weirder things happen [laughter] of all the people who don't have to do it, I think Facebook's near the top. They've got pretty good


traffic with that. It's time for the ad fell five but before we get to that segment of the show, I do want to take this opportunity to thank my guests the gun and allow them the each do a shameless plug starting with Joe Jaffe. You can find him@the innovation That's where he is the super adviser. Tell us what's going on in your world, Joe, what would you like to promote this week? So I heard this this new festival in Austin cold south by southwest. I am


very excited about it. I I'm half time. Yeah, I'm s- exactly you know it. I that come back and I'm I'm schilling shamelessly my book reading. So this is for my festival. And and the panel is cold. What's a book reading? It's called bull to suck the demise of the corporation, and I would love it. Love it, love it. If you would vote me up. I feel me up


do whatever the hell you need to do that. This is the end of the show, Bob, so we can get a little bit risque. But you'll votes would would would hopefully tip me over the edge and I look forward to being able to share my new book with you guys in March. So many double-entendres in that and sermon and so Naro lost our [laughter]. Well, next up we have Tim leak. You can find him at RPI R, right? Tim? That's right. So


tell us what's going on in your world, what would you like to promote now, I should have promoted four different south by talks, but I didn't have that one ready to go actually didn't think I had anything particular to plug. So what I wanted to play honesty, which is a bit of a. It in industry PSA to hire people with experience. I've I've talked with cheese collie like eight different people over the last couple of months that are that are people that with a lot of experience, a really


great at what they do and they're they're not getting the amount of work they want to get because people are constantly hiring younger, cheaper people. When in fact, it's certainly been my experience that people with experience that know what they're doing are able to solve problems significantly faster and with higher quality in it just strikes me as is obviously we know there's an age issue in the industry, but that's that's my shameless plug hire people with experience. Here here here here


next up, we have Darin Martin you can find him. It's streamlined media. That's a streamline Is that correct? Am I getting that right? Yes, it is about things that. Yeah. And I'd like to know just plug bowl culture, our multicultural communication agency, we help a brands and agencies connect to and retain diverse talent. We actually also have a south by southwest panel picker that I want to plug. I mean, we're actually talking about the mass exodus of diverse talent in


the tech industry. Of course, we're seeing large attrition rates from black and lat next individuals, as well as women in a larger companies like Facebook and Google. And so we're gonna talk about tech, not necessarily engaging or working with their diverse talent to keep them in there, right? So definitely I'll send the link through to Bob, and you can also both@bowl will have a link there as well. Fantastic panel. Pickers the Jonathan you got a panel


picker [laughter] Sean. I don't have one today. You can find him Mashburn all, a whole bunch of websites, but tell us what's going on, Jonathan, what would you like to promote? Well, first of all, I you know, I'm a big fan of you, Bob, in a big fan of the show. So I would hope that everybody would share the show. I'm also a huge fan of linked in very happy. I hit over 12000 links last week, so I'm pretty pretty happy about that. And I would also say I would like to promote the other panelists on


here. So I I think this is one of the the smartest groups of people that I've ever had the pleasure of working with. So I would promote each of you guys, and I would hope that the audience would help promote their south by southwest. Yeah, absolutely. Anybody out there when I wrote up a good panel, these are two excellent choices known Joe for years, just not earn recently, but love you and love your thoughts, man. You're pretty amazing. So definitely check out both those panels


as for me for more information about me or the show visit the being There you can find a complete show archive. You can find out how to consult with me. You can even find out how to advertise on the program. So check it all out@the being and don't forget we now have transcription services available for every episode. Thanks to transcribe Go to transcribe cast. They're going to give you a special offer nice discount for your first order. So check them


out@transcribe cast. And now it's time for the ad fell five or rundown of the lowest moments in advertising marketing and public relations from the last week. And I stopped Twitter, continues to bite the hand that feeds Joe ending API access to critical functions, including push notifications and even apple watch usage. I, you know, I think it'd be one thing if they had a competing product for these services, but they don't even have a competing


product for these services. They just want to charge a whole heck of a lot of money to make it impossibly expensive for consumers actually bought these ups anymore. No, but again, I give him a break because they've still got promoted accounts and promoted tweets. So I'm pretty sure between those, those promoted products are gonna be okay [laughter] for that of that in the data little relationship with the president. But other than that [laughter] 10 of that. How about that?


Well, next up a group of Google employees have added the search giant for working with the Chinese government Daren to put out a censored version of their search product. You know, it's it's funny, this kind of weird relationship. The Google has always had with China. They've always been looking for ways in which to bring their product there, and they claim that it was all about trying to keep the product free and clear and open for


the Chinese user. But it doesn't seem like they were following with the room Reno approaches worthy. Oh, yeah, for sure. Google is chasing money. The Chinese government has money. And so if they need to find a way in which to build a product around their policies, they're gonna do that. Right. And they're going to try to find a way to increase their revenue. On an ethics level, I, you know, we can argue about that. I think that but they're trying to find out how to increase their profit,


and it still might be a step in the right direction, right? At least at least it's something right. Yeah, I think there are other things now Ray, but at least it's something is is totally true. But if it's regulated, then. You know that's dangerous as well. Very dangerous world, something we can all get behind is definitely dangerous. Everyone this week has been lauding the Bud Light, Cleveland, Browns promotion that put change refrigerators of the


product all over the NFL team stadium to be opened and distributed for free. Only if the team finally wins. Jonathan, the only trouble is the math look. We've got enough beer in these these refrigerators to account for maybe 6000 cans of beer serving a stadium of over 40000 attendees who are going to bum rush this thing as soon as the the Browns win a game. This is a perfect recipe for disaster. Is it


not know? Because I think the Browns are gonna win a game [laughter]. But outside of that, all they have to do is call the the promotion in the campaign results and participation may vary [laughter]. Terminal. You know also that 40000 attendees number came from Facebook, so I'm not sure. Well, well played sir, but, but can I just found on on a serious note? This is. It's so sad when when such a great idea and


this is really a great idea, great idea, except except what happens is you end up with, you know, the cost cutters and the bean counters and and, and lack of budget that ends up. You know, with an with an idea that doesn't reach its potential now look, you can if they've done, maybe they have done the math. Although I mean, they certainly haven't whether at 6000 cans and 40000 attendees. But when you take out Maynas and you take counts. Certain groups that you know, just


people that are fed on not drinkers, it's going to be lower than 40000 but it's certainly not going to be 6000. So it's just a pity. When you finally get that, you know that kind of dominant the rough that that you would end up with. Being criticized, you know, being on an ad fail instead of being lauded for being in a full full piece of originality, where we need is the marketing team of rebuild a barrel to give the marketing team over a Budweiser call. Figure this out between the two


experience. Now, next up the. The makers of a horror film, the nun apparently violated YouTube search terms of us by tricking viewers into thinking they needed the turn up their sound before scaring the bejesus out of them. Oh man, Tim. Sometimes cleverness doesn't beat out the need to give not give folks a heart attack. I mean, this is this is a very clever idea that really didn't think through the whole


process of what it might actually due to consumer in a particular environment, especially an unsuspecting consumer. Well, I gotta be honest we we went to see crazy rotations last night, and there is a non trailer before big before it. And the very end of that trailer. Had everybody all all the girls that I was with, all of them jumped and freaked out. Jump at the end. I jump at the end of the trail, or I've seen it on television. It stirs a good one, but


I think it's probably okay. I mean, I've also seen, okay, no YouTube videos that do that, that pull that off. That pull that trick on me. So no, no, no, none of them. None of them take known than take the time to trick you into making your volume as loud as a possibly Kamoyo. I've seen that one, so I don't know. They they do that where they like in order to understand that you have to turn it up and or they do that one where you have to put your face really close to the screen, or there's versions of this. So I think they're


just playing off of that. And you know, I guess if if they scared them too much, they weren't the great naughtiest this moving in the fridge. Pointing not a good week for the church. Oh, you know, maybe a little too same. That's why it's not in the NFL last, but not least. My favorite of the week agent, Adam had the a campaign for nursing bras after it was pointed out to them to go. There was no way that any of the skinny young models that the us


could have ever given birth to anything. I thought this was really kind of a silly silly mistake on the part of the brand. You know, it's like. How hard is it to cast real mothers for nursing Brock empty? I I just thought you wrote the coffee really well. I just chuckled when you said there was no way that any of the skinny young waddles could've values could have given birth to anything. So. In our I dunno may maybe one day


maybe I don't even know what to say about that. It's just. It's just it's a rookie mistake. It seems to be we'll have something to add to this list or just wanna discuss it. Comment online. Use the hashtag, Advil fell five. That's pound add fell in the number five. Well, that does it for this week's show if you'd like to subscribe to this podcast visit our website@the bean and click on the subscribe link. If you're Nigerians listener, we've also provided a direct link to the tunes music store or just search


for the being cast in the podcast directory of I tunes and whichever podcast directory us when you subscribe, please leave reserve. You got a comment, have a question we'd love to hear from you. Just send your emails to being cast. A opening theme was performed by Joe cyber closing theme by C Jax. Thanks for listening. I'm Bob, nor will be back again next week. Hope you'll join us then.






Cool beans.